SHP Forums

MusicallyInspired wrote:I still don't understand people's misgivings about the cat/rat puzzle. Obviously you're supposed to do something there. If you don't then it should click that you missed something. It's not just some random occurrence. You can't even walk while it's happened. Obviously you're supposed to do something.

I got the puzzle right away the first time I played the game. Seemed pretty obvious to me.

MusicallyInspired wrote:I still don't understand people's misgivings about the cat/rat puzzle. Obviously you're supposed to do something there. If you don't then it should click that you missed something. It's not just some random occurrence. You can't even walk while it's happened. Obviously you're supposed to do something.

Come on now. The idea that you're just supposed to immediately know that something had to be done there is bogus. It could be a scene that the user thinks will lead to something on another screen or be referred to later. The idea that it's alright for a designer to potentially cost a player hours of their time simply backtracking and repeating their actions is bogus. It's absolutely unacceptable, and is exactly the sort of punish-the-player crap design that caused Sierra to be surpassed in the genre by Lucasarts in the early 90s.

jujigatame wrote: It's absolutely unacceptable, and is exactly the sort of punish-the-player crap design that caused Sierra to be surpassed in the genre by Lucasarts in the early 90s.

It was? Really? When did this happen and why no one informed me?

Jokes aside, in my humble opinion, Sierra always remained at least a step in front of LucasArts.

I dunno, many of the old Sierra games hold a special place in my heart, but it's really mostly out of nostalgia. Lucasarts threw out all of the unfriendly design decisions and made thoroughly enjoyable, user friendly games. As as a result, almost everything they made received universal acclaim.

It's notable that once Sierra got some serious competition in the early 90s, pretty much every "classic" they produced had Jane Jensen's fingerprints on it. Also notable is that the GK series, maybe the most revered and acclaimed series in the genre's history, was devoid of unfair dead ends and achieved a level of storytelling that Roberta Williams never touched in her wildest dreams.

See, after pissing, screaming, kicking, shouting, complaining, and even writing a letter to Sierra - once the games came out with that interface, and did away with the typing - all of the interfaces for Sierra games, were, to me, pretty much the same, with very slight variations. So once I learned how to play and manipulate things in KQ5 (which was, I think the first non typey Sierra game I played), the rest seemed pretty easy as they came out.

jujigatame wrote:I dunno, many of the old Sierra games hold a special place in my heart, but it's really mostly out of nostalgia. Lucasarts threw out all of the unfriendly design decisions and made thoroughly enjoyable, user friendly games. As as a result, almost everything they made received universal acclaim.

I agree.

Many Sierra games are important to me, but that's due to nostalgia, not game design or story. The games LucasArts made were, in my opinion, much better and far more user-friendly.

Tons of stupid deaths and dead-ends were what ruined for Sierra Adventures for me. I could deal with a death here and there, but half the time Sierra killed you for simply exploring and very rarely did any of the deaths make sense!

How're you supposed to know (or even guess) that the chandelier in TCB is going to fall and kill you if you walk under it? The answer is you can't! You simply have to die first, restore the game and then know to avoid it and that's ridiculous.

Some LucasArts games did include death. You could die in Indiana Jones and the Fate of Atlantis, but you could figure out what your life was in danger. When a Nazi is holding you at gunpoint, chances are you know that you could die. Compare that to Sierra, where touching a piece of seemingly innocent metal resulted in hacking your entire hand off in SQ3.

As for the dead-end gameplay... well, Sierra was notorious for that. Even their later titles suffered from this somewhat. I never found a dead-end situation in any LucasArts game.

Say what you will about "making the game too easy" by avoiding unnecessary death, but dead-ends are nothing but the result of poor game design.

DeadPoolX wrote: Compare that to Sierra, where touching a piece of seemingly innocent metal resulted in hacking your entire hand off in SQ3.

Incorrect!
It slits your wrist!
(Actually, you may be right... I don't remember!)

I guess it's different playing styles. I didn't mind the sudden death traps, because I learned to save frequently. Someone would say, "I shouldn't have to save frequently!" And I'd say, "Then where's the fun in playing, if there's no risk?" Then someone would say, "I am playing for the puzzles! The story!" And so on and so on. To me, I didn't mind those deaths. If I died, it was rare that it set me so far back that I'd throw the game in the air and shout, "Forget it!" It was usually easy to get back to where I was. (But then, this sort of reminds me of the discussion you {DPX} and I had before - about the save points - and the idea of being able to save whenever vs save points - you disliked save points, because you'd have to go back and do what you just did if you failed right in front of a big fight, where you didn't get a chance to save).

Dying was one of the features of Space Quest, though. If you didn't laugh at the deaths and all the crazy ways you could die then you weren't playing it for the right reasons! lol

MusicallyInspired wrote:Dying was one of the features of Space Quest, though. If you didn't laugh at the deaths and all the crazy ways you could die then you weren't playing it for the right reasons! lol

Especially when they MOCK you (in the description!) for the way you die! They really bring about the loserness of Roger Wilco (or whatever name you picked for the first one!)

jujigatame wrote: It's notable that once Sierra got some serious competition in the early 90s, pretty much every "classic" they produced had Jane Jensen's fingerprints on it. Also notable is that the GK series, maybe the most revered and acclaimed series in the genre's history, was devoid of unfair dead ends and achieved a level of storytelling that Roberta Williams never touched in her wildest dreams.

You're preaching to the choir. I too believe that Jane Jensen is the greatest game designer of that age and yes, Gabriel Knight is vastly superior to any other Sierra game, at least in my opinion, also thanks to the friendlier game design, where there was no risk of dead-ends and death scenarios were confined in the last segment of the game. However, I must also note that dead-ends never really bothered me and that, dead-ends or no, I enjoyed the other Sierra adventures much, much, much more than I ever did LucasArts'. Their stories are simply not my cup of tea and their humor usually falls flat to me.

AndreaDraco wrote: You're preaching to the choir. I too believe that Jane Jensen is the greatest game designer of that age

When you say of that age... do you mean, she isn't (these days)... say for like Gray Matter?

Tawmis wrote: When you say of that age... do you mean, she isn't (these days)... say for like Gray Matter?

Gray Matter is superbly written. Jane's pen is sharp as ever. However, she was only partly responsible for the gameplay design and it shows.

AndreaDraco wrote:

Tawmis wrote: When you say of that age... do you mean, she isn't (these days)... say for like Gray Matter?

Gray Matter is superbly written. Jane's pen is sharp as ever. However, she was only partly responsible for the gameplay design and it shows.

Well, "game designers" don't really exist nowadays. Today it's far more of a group effort with a development team.

MusicallyInspired wrote:Dying was one of the features of Space Quest, though. If you didn't laugh at the deaths and all the crazy ways you could die then you weren't playing it for the right reasons! lol

I somewhat agree. Aside from GK, I think the Space Quest series may have aged the best of all the Sierra series, because of its goofy humor and surprisingly original and entertaining storylines. However, it could still be awfully punishing in spots. It's just a shame the 6th installment was so mediocre and that the 7th installment never materialized.

AndreaDraco wrote:

Tawmis wrote: When you say of that age... do you mean, she isn't (these days)... say for like Gray Matter?

Gray Matter is superbly written. Jane's pen is sharp as ever. However, she was only partly responsible for the gameplay design and it shows.

See, it hasn't captured me yet... I ... haven't gotten into it.