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It sounds to me like your party doesn't have a healer, a tank or a rogue - it's all long-range damage (druid, sorcerer and wizard). Don't parties usually need a healer of some kind (cleric is favourite), a tank to soak up damage, and a rogue for picking locks, disarming traps and the like?

I still have some of my 2nd ed AD&D books kicking about. Not the source books, sadly, but I have some of the complementary books - the Complete Book of Villains, Sages and Specialists, Arms and Equipment Guide, Of Ships and the Sea. I haven't looked at them in ages. I was using them when I was writing fantasy, to get some flavour text and ideas.

Maybe I can use them again, now that I'm writing history.

Rath Darkblade wrote:It sounds to me like your party doesn't have a healer, a tank or a rogue - it's all long-range damage (druid, sorcerer and wizard). Don't parties usually need a healer of some kind (cleric is favourite), a tank to soak up damage, and a rogue for picking locks, disarming traps and the like?

I still have some of my 2nd ed AD&D books kicking about. Not the source books, sadly, but I have some of the complementary books - the Complete Book of Villains, Sages and Specialists, Arms and Equipment Guide, Of Ships and the Sea. I haven't looked at them in ages. I was using them when I was writing fantasy, to get some flavour text and ideas.

Maybe I can use them again, now that I'm writing history.

Oh, they do - the current session started with:

Half-Elf Paladin (Played by Tammy)
Half-Orc Barbarian (Played by Jake)
Half-Orc Rogue (Played by Chuck)
Dragonborn Monk (Played by my wife, Amiee)
Tiefling Bard (Played by Sami)
Wood Elf Druid (Played by Matt)

First change, came at the lodge they reached (they attained like level 4 by then) where Matt changed his character, so it became:

Half-Elf Paladin (Played by Tammy)
Half-Orc Barbarian (Played by Jake)
Half-Orc Rogue (Played by Chuck)
Dragonborn Monk (Played by my wife, Amiee)
Tiefling Bard (Played by Sami)
Wood Elf Ranger (Played by Matt)

Matt's girlfriend joined the campaign at the next portion, at the castle they need to infiltrate... she cracks me up, because she's NEVER played. So she put her highest stat in Charisma and is a fighter. Works though when she needs to do deception/intimidate checks, since those are based off charisma. So the party became:

Half-Elf Paladin (Played by Tammy)
Half-Orc Barbarian (Played by Jake)
Half-Orc Rogue (Played by Chuck)
Dragonborn Monk (Played by my wife, Amiee)
Tiefling Bard (Played by Sami)
Wood Elf Druid (Played by Matt)
Wood Elf Fighter (Played by Caitlin)

The next segment, at the village it will change with Jake and Amiee changing out to:

Half-Elf Paladin (Played by Tammy)
Gnome Wizard (Played By Jake)
Half-Orc Rogue (Played by Chuck)
Gnome Sorcerer (Played by my wife, Amiee)
Tiefling Bard (Played by Sami)
Wood Elf Druid (Played by Matt)
Wood Elf Fighter (Played by Caitlin)

My players never write their backgrounds, and for me, I always use backgrounds to tie characters in, and even base adventures off of them. The only exception is, Jake wrote the origin for his Gnome Wizard - I just added to it, to tie him into the adventure. Matt wrote his for his ranger, but he's not sent it to me yet. But he told me orally what it was; so then I was able to use his origin to tie in his girlfriend's character to the campaign. One of my favorites is the one I wrote for my wife's Gnome Sorcerer she's about to play; because her origin is tied into the previous campaign (which was all different characters, that went from level 1 to level 10) and took place, I believe 75 to 100 years ago from the current campaign. (I love doing origins - and creating that back story!)

In the event you're curious, you can see the character origins I did for this group here: http://tawmis.com/kneurth/characters/ag ... characters

Half-Orc rogue...? I read his background, but where did he learn his rogue skills? It's funny - rogue is a class I usually associate with humans, elves or halflings (for obvious reasons). Half-orcs start with a charisma penalty, so - ok - I wouldn't play paladin with them, but rogue...? Aren't they a little too large and obvious to be a rogue?

Rath Darkblade wrote:Half-Orc rogue...? I read his background, but where did he learn his rogue skills? It's funny - rogue is a class I usually associate with humans, elves or halflings (for obvious reasons). Half-orcs start with a charisma penalty, so - ok - I wouldn't play paladin with them, but rogue...? Aren't they a little too large and obvious to be a rogue?

If you think about it though - as a Half-Orc, you're not welcomed among Orcs, typically (and if you are, you're spat on as a half-breed), and among humans, people shy away and fear you (and tend to hate and mistrust you because of orc blood in your veins) - so where do you go to get food? Get rest? Chances are, you lived on the streets and survived by stealing.

Hmmm... that makes sense, but how are half-orcs for Dex? IIRC, rogues need a very high Dex. Don't half-orcs have an average Dex at best?

Then again, I can't think of half-orcs without automatically thinking "barbarian". (Blame Daelan. "The rage of the Red Tiger unleashed!!!")

Since half-orcs are outcasts, a barbarian makes sense. Half-orc fighters-for-hire are also plausible.

Society-wise, perhaps a half-orc could be a druid or ranger - i.e. being out in the wild most of the time, and not bothering with big cities. Could they be either?

I wouldn't expect them to be anything that involves mingling with a lot of other people of the same class (e.g. cleric, paladin etc.) Spellcasters are also out, because.... y'know. Half-orc wizard? Studying with other wizards? Hmm. *shrug* Half-orc sorcerer is slightly more plausible, but there's the Cha penalty again. Perhaps a half-orc hedge wizard? But that's hardly very heroic.

Rath Darkblade wrote: Hmmm... that makes sense, but how are half-orcs for Dex? IIRC, rogues need a very high Dex. Don't half-orcs have an average Dex at best?

It's all based on the roll of 6 sided dice. A Half-Orc could end up with 18 Dexterity, if they rolled three 6's on a d6.

Rath Darkblade wrote: Then again, I can't think of half-orcs without automatically thinking "barbarian". (Blame Daelan. "The rage of the Red Tiger unleashed!!!")
Since half-orcs are outcasts, a barbarian makes sense. Half-orc fighters-for-hire are also plausible.
Society-wise, perhaps a half-orc could be a druid or ranger - i.e. being out in the wild most of the time, and not bothering with big cities. Could they be either?

5th Edition has no restrictions. You can be any race and any class combo you want.

Rath Darkblade wrote: I wouldn't expect them to be anything that involves mingling with a lot of other people of the same class (e.g. cleric, paladin etc.) Spellcasters are also out, because.... y'know. Half-orc wizard? Studying with other wizards? Hmm. *shrug* Half-orc sorcerer is slightly more plausible, but there's the Cha penalty again. Perhaps a half-orc hedge wizard? But that's hardly very heroic.

They could be Paladins or Clerics. Just because they're a Cleric or Paladin does not mean that they have to mingle... A specific god (or goddess) could call on that person to do some Holy (or Unholy, if evil) work in the name of the god/goddess; so that the god/goddess grants them Cleric/Paladin abilities in their name.

Same with a Wizard. A Half-Orc might have been the son of a Orc Shaman, and had an innate understanding of Magic - and went on to master it.

It's all in the backstory that the players create (or in my campaign, that I typically create for my players).

The reason I find half-orc paladins, clerics, wizards etc. implausible is because of the backstory. While they are in training, paladins and clerics normally have to co-exist with other paladins/clerics in a temple of some kind. If both orcs and humans shun half-orcs, wouldn't that existence (training to be a paladin/cleric with others who shun or even bully you) be unbearable?

Same for wizards - they have to train in order to become wizards. And if we wheel out that hoary old cliche about wizard schools (which are waaaaaaay older than HP, but anyway... ), then half-orc students would be very unpopular. A more plausible way is for a half-orc to study with a personal mentor - and as you mentioned, perhaps the son of an Orc Shaman.

But if an Orc Shaman had a Half-Orc for a son, wouldn't that also make for a fraught relationship between them (not to mention the shaman's wife?) Wouldn't the Orc Shaman be upset or embarrassed with - or even enraged at - his half-offspring? The "every time I look at you, I'm reminded of the time I wasn't strong enough to defend my wife" sort of thing.

Don't mind me, just thinking aloud...

Rath Darkblade wrote: The reason I find half-orc paladins, clerics, wizards etc. implausible is because of the backstory. While they are in training, paladins and clerics normally have to co-exist with other paladins/clerics in a temple of some kind. If both orcs and humans shun half-orcs, wouldn't that existence (training to be a paladin/cleric with others who shun or even bully you) be unbearable?

See, to me - it's just someone who receives a "Holy Calling" from a god/goddess; despite race.
(Ironically, in 5th edition, the page for the Paladin class is a 1/2 Orc)

Rath Darkblade wrote: Same for wizards - they have to train in order to become wizards. And if we wheel out that hoary old cliche about wizard schools (which are waaaaaaay older than HP, but anyway... ), then half-orc students would be very unpopular. A more plausible way is for a half-orc to study with a personal mentor - and as you mentioned, perhaps the son of an Orc Shaman.
But if an Orc Shaman had a Half-Orc for a son, wouldn't that also make for a fraught relationship between them (not to mention the shaman's wife?) Wouldn't the Orc Shaman be upset or embarrassed with - or even enraged at - his half-offspring? The "every time I look at you, I'm reminded of the time I wasn't strong enough to defend my wife" sort of thing.

Well... if he's a Half-Orc... there's a good (and most common thing) that his father was an Orc, and the mother wasn't (with the mother, most likely being human). In which case, it's typically not a consensual type of relationship, if you know what I mean. And the (human) female bares the child. I would, for example, think that perhaps the Orc (Shaman) has a (female) human slave that he abuses, and has a relationship with; and as a rare result, gets her pregnant. She bares the child. The Orc Shaman doesn't want to kill her (why waste a slave), and thinks that the offspring can be used as a slave as well, or if he/she shows promise, a potential heir to the Shamanistic ways.

Rath Darkblade wrote: Don't mind me, just thinking aloud...

Oh, I don't mind! I love discussing D&D (... obviously)

Tawmis wrote:

Rath Darkblade wrote: The reason I find half-orc paladins, clerics, wizards etc. implausible is because of the backstory. While they are in training, paladins and clerics normally have to co-exist with other paladins/clerics in a temple of some kind. If both orcs and humans shun half-orcs, wouldn't that existence (training to be a paladin/cleric with others who shun or even bully you) be unbearable?

See, to me - it's just someone who receives a "Holy Calling" from a god/goddess; despite race.
(Ironically, in 5th edition, the page for the Paladin class is a 1/2 Orc)

Hmm... if the half-orc becomes especially tall, can he be a hand-and-a-half-orc?

Also, if the half-orc paladin/cleric receives a "Holy Calling" from a deity, wouldn't the other paladins/clerics-in-training be very jealous and bully him even more? Or, if he/she trains alone when he/she receives a "Holy Calling", there's every possibility that he/she will be teased/shunned/bullied along the way, both by orcs and by humans.

(On the other hand, if this paladin/cleric receives a "Holly Calling"... that just means it's Christmas in the D&D world, whether it be Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Greyhawk or whatever. Call me slightly twisted, but I find it hard to imagine Asmodeus, Lloth, Gruumsh and that crowd celebrating Christmas.)

Gruumsh: *blows on a squeaker*
Lloth: *wearing a santa hat* Sssssssssssss, what'ssssssss thissssssss for?
Asmodeus: *wearing the biggest Santa outfit ever* That's the signal for my world domination! Mwa ha ha ha ha!!!

Tawmis wrote: Well... if he's a Half-Orc... there's a good (and most common thing) that his father was an Orc, and the mother wasn't (with the mother, most likely being human). In which case, it's typically not a consensual type of relationship, if you know what I mean. And the (human) female bares the child. I would, for example, think that perhaps the Orc (Shaman) has a (female) human slave that he abuses, and has a relationship with; and as a rare result, gets her pregnant. She bares the child. The Orc Shaman doesn't want to kill her (why waste a slave), and thinks that the offspring can be used as a slave as well, or if he/she shows promise, a potential heir to the Shamanistic ways.

Oh? And what if it's the other way (i.e. the evil humans raid a peaceful orc village, and the dastardly human "inconveniences" a shy orc maid?

KILL DA HOOMANS! DROWN all of Dragonlance in their blood!!! And so on...)

Rath Darkblade wrote: Also, if the half-orc paladin/cleric receives a "Holy Calling" from a deity, wouldn't the other paladins/clerics-in-training be very jealous and bully him even more? Or, if he/she trains alone when he/she receives a "Holy Calling", there's every possibility that he/she will be teased/shunned/bullied along the way, both by orcs and by humans.

If you're a Paladin or Cleric, would you question your God/Goddess' choice? I'd say such a person risks the possibility of losing their holy powers.

Rath Darkblade wrote: Oh? And what if it's the other way (i.e. the evil humans raid a peaceful orc village, and the dastardly human "inconveniences" a shy orc maid?

Never underestimate the twisted minds of the world. And who knows, some might see beyond the flesh and find beauty. As bad as the World of Warcraft movie was (IMO), they do show how an orc (female) can look very attractive.

Tawmis wrote:If you're a Paladin or Cleric, would you question your God/Goddess' choice? I'd say such a person risks the possibility of losing their holy powers.

Hmm, I wouldn't doubt it. But isn't it possible for a Paladin or Cleric to experience a crisis of faith? I'm sure such a thing has happened before IRL, if not in D&D.

I'm also pretty sure that Brian van Hoose (of Knights of the Dinner Table fame) has found, or will find, a way to exploit this to his own advantage.

(If you haven't read KODT - Brian is an ex-GM, now a player and miniature painter, who has memorised rulebook after rulebook. He's one of the shrewdest rules lawyers in existence, but even he sometimes trips up - especially when it comes to Wishes).

Tawmis wrote:Never underestimate the twisted minds of the world.

I never do. I've worked in healthcare (and have read The Bozo Criminal Report) for way too long to do that.

Tawmis wrote:And who knows, some might see beyond the flesh and find beauty. As bad as the World of Warcraft movie was (IMO), they do show how an orc (female) can look very attractive.

That's true. Also see Shrek (the original, not the others) for something similar.

Rath Darkblade wrote:

Tawmis wrote:If you're a Paladin or Cleric, would you question your God/Goddess' choice? I'd say such a person risks the possibility of losing their holy powers.

Hmm, I wouldn't doubt it. But isn't it possible for a Paladin or Cleric to experience a crisis of faith? I'm sure such a thing has happened before IRL, if not in D&D.
I'm also pretty sure that Brian van Hoose (of Knights of the Dinner Table fame) has found, or will find, a way to exploit this to his own advantage.
(If you haven't read KODT - Brian is an ex-GM, now a player and miniature painter, who has memorised rulebook after rulebook. He's one of the shrewdest rules lawyers in existence, but even he sometimes trips up - especially when it comes to Wishes).

I've read KODT (mentioned it a few times and talked about using it to make my own comic.) This is the last one, but it links to all the previous ones.

As for a cleric/paladin who has lost faith, it's an interesting role playing opportunity; but with Paladins (especially, for me) - in my campaign if they begin doing things that are un-paladin like, I have a little ticker I keep, and they will eventually lose their powers, and simply become a fighter, until they redeem themselves in the name of their god/goddess.

comics. One example of how not to play D&D. "I pick up the gems and pocket them for sale later."

Hmm, I understand that if a paladin/cleric does this, they would lose their powers. However, if they do - for instance, if they stop worshiping Helm and start worshiping Ilmater or Tyr - could they gain new powers (with time?)

I'm simply asking this because I thought that Aribeth's story (and about-face) in NWN1 were interesting, but her swift regaining of power was a little unrealistic. (I won't even go into Maugrim - he seemed as nothing more than a moustache-twirling, evil-laughter-laughing cartoon villain. He even does the mwa-ha-ha not once, not twice, but three times.)

Oh, and just for no reason: a DeviantArt, D&D-inspired, Hassan Chop!

Rath Darkblade wrote: Hmm, I understand that if a paladin/cleric does this, they would lose their powers. However, if they do - for instance, if they stop worshiping Helm and start worshiping Ilmater or Tyr - could they gain new powers (with time?)

In my campaign, when I DM, certainly. But it's along the same lines, that the Cleric/Paladin would need to prove themselves to said god/goddess, before they're like, "Oh, you were a follower of Goddess_A, and now your worship me? Sure. Let me give you some powers!"

It'd be a long trail of the Cleric/Paladin proving themselves (to their original god/goddess, or their new god/goddess) before said god/goddess begins to notice them. Then maybe they whisper / give visions of how they can truly prove themselves and see if they complete the quests set before them by their deity.

(This always makes for a very easy way to ensure a party does a specific mission)

Rath Darkblade wrote: Oh, and just for no reason: a DeviantArt, D&D-inspired, Hassan Chop!

Tawmis wrote:

Rath Darkblade wrote: Hmm, I understand that if a paladin/cleric does this, they would lose their powers. However, if they do - for instance, if they stop worshiping Helm and start worshiping Ilmater or Tyr - could they gain new powers (with time?)

In my campaign, when I DM, certainly. But it's along the same lines, that the Cleric/Paladin would need to prove themselves to said god/goddess, before they're like, "Oh, you were a follower of Goddess_A, and now your worship me? Sure. Let me give you some powers!"

It'd be a long trail of the Cleric/Paladin proving themselves (to their original god/goddess, or their new god/goddess) before said god/goddess begins to notice them. Then maybe they whisper / give visions of how they can truly prove themselves and see if they complete the quests set before them by their deity.

(This always makes for a very easy way to ensure a party does a specific mission)

Right, that makes sense. If any deity did that - i.e. "Yay! A new worshiper! Let me bestow some powers on you!" - then I wouldn't think very much of that deity.

I can only think of one kind of deity that might do that, and even then it's a stretch - maybe a trickster deity, like Loki. But I can't think of any cleric or paladin who would choose to worship someone like Loki. It sounds like an opportunity for a comic adventure, though - maybe something as hammy (or ludicrous) as Bugs Bunny-as-a-genie. Maybe something like this:

(Loki is imprisoned in an underground cave, miles below the surface, where a poisonous snake drops venom on him. The ex-Paladin, after a long and tedious search, finally comes across him)

Ex-Paladin: Who are you?

Loki: Gaaaaaah! How can you not know me?! I'm Loki, the Suffering God!

Ex-Paladin: *gasp* At last! *falls on knees, melodramatically* Oooohhhh Mighty Loki! My trusty band and I hast sought thee for many a year!

Loki: (in serious pain) Cut the crap! Just release me from these bonds!

Ex-Paladin: *hacks at bonds with sword* I shalt release thee, O Mighty One! Will'st thou grant us a boon?

Loki: I'm not a musical god! I can't give you a tune!

Ex-Paladin: Nay, Great Loki! I ask if thou shalt grant us a boon! A BOON!

Loki: Um, sure, I can give you a baboon! Are you nearly done releasing me yet?

Ex-Paladin: Not a baboon, a boon! *finally cuts through Loki's bonds, Loki stands up*

Loki: Mwahahaha! Now all of Asgard shall know the wrath of Loki the Magnificent!

Ex-Paladin: *squeaks* Uuuummmm...?

Loki: Oh yes. You shall be rewarded, my good and faithful servant! *a huge hunk of rock falls on the paladin* You did ask for a moon, right?

Ex-Paladin: ...owie.

And so on. What can I say? Anyone dumb enough to want to free Loki, or someone like him, deserves what they get - don't you agree?