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That mountain path is also really annoying. I don't think those kinds of deadly mazes contribute anything to the adventure games. If you're good or you turn the game speed all the way down, you can get through safely. If you're bad, you'll spend a lot of unfun time saving and loading and still get through. And if you're really bad (i.e. you don't save as often as you should), you end up having to replay a lot.

I don't think I've ever played such a section and had fun doing so, and I don't think I've ever felt satisfaction or accomplishment from getting through it. It's always just relief that it's over.

adeyke wrote:That mountain path is also really annoying. I don't think those kinds of deadly mazes contribute anything to the adventure games. If you're good or you turn the game speed all the way down, you can get through safely. If you're bad, you'll spend a lot of unfun time saving and loading and still get through. And if you're really bad (i.e. you don't save as often as you should), you end up having to replay a lot.

I don't think I've ever played such a section and had fun doing so, and I don't think I've ever felt satisfaction or accomplishment from getting through it. It's always just relief that it's over.

I agree. King's Quest 1's Beanstalk in the original EGA was another example of this kind of nightmare!
For example, here's me playing it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dqllpJ ... edded#t=77 (picks up exactly when I begin climbing)

I've not tested it - but from Manahahanana's home on top - I think you can at least teleport anywhere from there down below. You will always, however, have to climb back UP to Manahahaha's house from the bottom, because you can not teleport outside of his house.

At least with KQ6 once you have scaled the Logic Cliffs all you had to do to go up or down again is to start and it will move you all the way down or up again.

Collector wrote:At least with KQ6 once you have scaled the Logic Cliffs all you had to do to go up or down again is to start and it will move you all the way down or up again.

Is King's Quest the only game that suffers from this? (I know it's in KQ4 also - the stairs that lead to the organ at the top).

Oh! Black Cauldron also had annoying cliffs you had to go through similar to KQ3 didn't it?

But I don't remember "stairs" or annoying cliffs in Space Quest... or Police Quest... or even Quest for Glory.

Well there was the man eating vine maze in SQ2. Not stairs, but still a place where you had to be very careful of every step with repeated saves.

I'd forgotten about all the stairs. Those are even worse than the KQ3 path. I know KQ4, with its direction-shift, caused me quite a few deaths. The ridiculous part there is that the character wouldn't actually have any difficulty. There's no wind, no loose rocks, no slanted ground. It's just a series of steps. It's really not reasonable that the character would instead walk sideways and fall down. So it's absurd that the player has such difficulty making them use the stairs correctly.

I've grown to really dislike most deaths in adventure games. I think it's much more compelling, both for the gameplay and for the narrative, to give the appearance of danger than to give actual danger.

In many situations in Sierra games, you only find out that something really is dangerous because it killed you. So if you play well and avoid that death, you might never know how close to death you really were. For example, if a player sees the SQ2 vine maze, recognizes that it's a maze, and safely navigates through it, they won't even know that it's alive and deadly. And in-universe, Roger will never know that, since any deaths from it are undone by loading the game.

And when the player does know that they can die from something, that often doesn't translate to "this is dangerous" but rather "this is difficult" or, worse, "this is tedious". Each time the player has to load the game, it takes them out of the world and reminds them that they are not their character. The character might die, but the player can always bring them back to life. And every death scene is one that isn't actually part of the canon, since it retroactively didn't happen.

It would be much more effective, I think, to make it seem dangerous, via dramatic music, the character's reactions, and near-misses (e.g. falling in such a way that you can still pull yourself back up and recover). Those kinds of things are admittedly beyond the AGI engine, but then it might have been better to just leave that part out. And definitely not require the player to walk through that path repeatedly.

Collector wrote:Well there was the man eating vine maze in SQ2. Not stairs, but still a place where you had to be very careful of every step with repeated saves.

Oh! You're right! Where the small alien is picking the berries! I can't believe I forgot that.

adeyke wrote: I'd forgotten about all the stairs. Those are even worse than the KQ3 path. I know KQ4, with its direction-shift, caused me quite a few deaths. The ridiculous part there is that the character wouldn't actually have any difficulty. There's no wind, no loose rocks, no slanted ground. It's just a series of steps. It's really not reasonable that the character would instead walk sideways and fall down. So it's absurd that the player has such difficulty making them use the stairs correctly.

I agree. Stairs in the adventure games, that can lead to your death from falling, seems out of place.

adeyke wrote: I've grown to really dislike most deaths in adventure games. I think it's much more compelling, both for the gameplay and for the narrative, to give the appearance of danger than to give actual danger.

I don't mind it - if it's reasonable (and sometimes funny).

For example, sticking to King's Quest 3 - when Medusa appears, you have to type "show mirror to medusa" or "show medusa the mirror" - in literally, three seconds, before she touches you. So you have to know to type that - or have it ready - or have typed it before to hit F3 fast enough - and only when she's CLOSE enough. So you have literally got to either use a walk through - or die - to discover this.

And I have been doing KQ3 through memory (except for when it comes to using the spells) - and I think i died about 10 times, with Medusa alone, because I didn't have time to turn away from her, before she appeared on the screen and turned me to stone - from the OTHER END of the screen!

In the instance of Medusa, I think her popping up on the screen - then a pop up text that says, "Oh no! It's Medusa! Don't let her touch you and don't let her look into your eyes! She will turn you to stone!"

And then making it so to "see into her eyes" she has to be reasonable close (at least as close as it takes for her to see her own reflection in the mirror) - so that way, even if you're facing her - you can't be turned to stone from all the way across the screen.

However, as "random" as the death is in Space Quest III when you try to pick up that piece of metal and it slits your wrist (no one to know it's lethal until it happens), I don't mind it - because those are at least amusing (the response from the game).

adeyke wrote: And when the player does know that they can die from something, that often doesn't translate to "this is dangerous" but rather "this is difficult" or, worse, "this is tedious". Each time the player has to load the game, it takes them out of the world and reminds them that they are not their character. The character might die, but the player can always bring them back to life. And every death scene is one that isn't actually part of the canon, since it retroactively didn't happen.

True. The plus side, at least is - you can save anywhere, and as often as you want. You can even create sub directories to save your games in, and potentially save enough games from one Sierra game, to fill an entire hard drive. (Of course, that's pretty extreme!)

So at least, if you do die somewhere - you know you can save before the screen.

That Medusa thing is certainly very problematic. I agree that the player has no way to figure out how to defeat her without a walkthrough or dying. Which means that in-universe, Gwydion has no reason to stand in the desert, facing east, even though that's what he'll end up doing.

However, since figuring that out (and having the "show mirror" already typed out while entering the desert), I don't recall having much difficulty with her. There are a lot of other things that will reliably kill me a few times, even though I've played the games many times (not a complete list, especially since I can't recall all games equally well):

• SQ1: The acid drips
• SQ1: The sand skimmer sequence (technically, I don't die, since I instead save/restore repeatedly within the sequence)
• SQ1: The slot machine
• SQ2: The vine maze monster
• SQ3: Failing to zap all the trash properly
• SQ4: Evading the sequel police in the mall
• SQ4: The robot maze at the end
• KQ1: The beanstalk
• KQ2: The poison thorn maze, until I learned about one of the most ridiculous puzzles ever
• KQ3: The mountain
• KQ4: The shark
• KQ4: The troll cave
• KQ4: The mountain
• KQ4: The stairs
• PQ1: Driving
• GK1: The zombies in the wheel within a wheel

One thing that's worth mentioning is LSL2. It really plays with the difference between the player's perception of danger and the character's. Larry never finds out about the onklunk and never realizes that basically everyone was trying to kill him. So as an examination of that issue, it's interesting. The resultant gameplay still has all the usual problems, though.

adeyke wrote: SQ1: The acid drips

Ah! Yes, I remember that in the cave. I think I can make it pretty well through there (because at least there's a pattern that you can figure out). This one I didn't mind so much, because it was at least believable that there might be some horrible dripping acid you need to avoid.

adeyke wrote: SQ1: The sand skimmer sequence (technically, I don't die, since I instead save/restore repeatedly within the sequence)

Yeah, that's just a general arcade sequence, and not too overly difficult.

adeyke wrote: SQ1: The slot machine

Trying to remember - isn't there a way to "cheat" the slot machine? Or was this in SQIV when you go back in time?

adeyke wrote: SQ2: The vine maze monster

Yes, this was a nightmare also. But another one I didn't mind, because I could believe that there was some form of fauna that had laid out traps like that. (Such fauna exists in real life - I mean, not like that - but things like the Venus Fly trap and such).

adeyke wrote: SQ3: Failing to zap all the trash properly

I am trying to remember where this is? I am ashamed because of the Space Quest series, SQIII was probably my favorite.

adeyke wrote: SQ4: Evading the sequel police in the mall

Well, this was made infinitely more difficult by timer bug issues. But with this one, I get it - it's someone chasing you down. At least it's logical that you're trying to avoid them, rather than say - plummeting to your death from not being able to walk on stairs.

adeyke wrote: SQ4: The robot maze at the end

I can't remember this one either? (Thankfully I am on a quest to replay all the classic Sierra games...)

adeyke wrote: KQ1: The beanstalk

Yeah... I made a video of that (it's in another thread around here)...

adeyke wrote: KQ2: The poison thorn maze, until I learned about one of the most ridiculous puzzles ever

That was tricky. The answer was simply to not kill the snake.

But they put the wrong answer in front of you first.

adeyke wrote: KQ3: The mountain

Since I am currently replaying KQ3, I feel your pain.

adeyke wrote: KQ4: The shark

Swim by the edge of the screen at all times.

adeyke wrote: KQ4: The troll cave

I don't recall danger here?

adeyke wrote: KQ4: The mountain

Which is pretty much just a recolored KQ3.

adeyke wrote: KQ4: The stairs

Naturally agree here.

adeyke wrote: PQ1: Driving

Hah! I remember dying a few times, until hitting Escape and changing the speed to super slow.

adeyke wrote: GK1: The zombies in the wheel within a wheel

That thing is still a pain.

Tawmis wrote:

adeyke wrote: SQ1: The slot machine

Trying to remember - isn't there a way to "cheat" the slot machine? Or was this in SQIV when you go back in time?

The remake added an item that let you cheat. The original didn't have it.

Tawmis wrote:

adeyke wrote: SQ2: The vine maze monster

Yes, this was a nightmare also. But another one I didn't mind, because I could believe that there was some form of fauna that had laid out traps like that. (Such fauna exists in real life - I mean, not like that - but things like the Venus Fly trap and such).

I don't think the plausibility of the situation really enters into it: I don't think its presence increased my enjoyment of the game (rather the opposite).

Tawmis wrote:

adeyke wrote: SQ3: Failing to zap all the trash properly

I am trying to remember where this is? I am ashamed because of the Space Quest series, SQIII was probably my favorite.

It's at the end. You're disguised as janitor and sneaking through ScumSoft. You have to zap the trash in each wastebasket you find. If you accidentally walk past one or zap the floor, they'll catch on to you.

Tawmis wrote:

adeyke wrote: SQ4: The robot maze at the end

I can't remember this one either? (Thankfully I am on a quest to replay all the classic Sierra games...)

It's at the very end, when you're inside the machine. There are patrolling robots that can instantly kill you as soon as they enter the screen. There's an optional (and complicated) way to see a map of their current position, but you still have to navigate the maze in real time without them getting you.

Tawmis wrote:

adeyke wrote: KQ2: The poison thorn maze, until I learned about one of the most ridiculous puzzles ever

That was tricky. The answer was simply to not kill the snake.

But they put the wrong answer in front of you first.

I know that now. However, nothing will ever convince me that "throw the bridle on the snake so that it turns into a flying horse that gives you a magic sugar cube that protects you from poisonous plants" is a sensible puzzle.

I suppose that, from the way you get the three items from the lamp, you could guess that the bridle is useful for that quest. However, even then, you're just at the point of "I'll try using this item and see what happens", rather than actually trying to achieve a particular end result.

Tawmis wrote:

adeyke wrote: KQ4: The shark

Swim by the edge of the screen at all times.

That's necessary, but not always enough to avoid death. It's also ridiculous. The whole idea of screens is something that's part of the game, not the universe. So having survival depend on you knowing that sharks only patrol certain rectangular areas in the ocean and will disappear if you leave that area and return isn't good design.

Tawmis wrote:

adeyke wrote: KQ4: The troll cave

I don't recall danger here?

"Troll" being the key word .

Each time you enter a new screen in the cave, there's a chance you'll encounter the troll. If you do, it'll chase you, even if you leave the screen, until it catches you or you leave the cave.

What this means is: in the canonical playthrough, Rosella went all the way through the cave twice without encountering the troll. Because if she had encountered a troll in the troll cave, she'd be dead.

Tawmis wrote:

adeyke wrote: PQ1: Driving

Hah! I remember dying a few times, until hitting Escape and changing the speed to super slow.

That's also what I ended up doing here (and for a lot of other things in the list). I don't like it, though. I normally play at max speed (or, if max speed means as fast as the CPU allows, a notch below that).

Tawmis wrote:Another issue I take up with King's Quest III is - a lot of the times it's a waiting game. I was out collecting stuff, but knew my half hour was almost up (and I still needed more things to do) - so I quickly returned to the castle, hid my items, and literally waited for six minutes for Manahahahanana to say he was back from his trip.

Say what you will about AGDI's KQ backstory and the new puzzles, but their KQ3 Redux really had some wonderful quality-of-life changes:

• The eagle feather is via puzzle instead of a random drop.
• The mountain path is far less mazy.
• There's no risk of running out of food, due to replenishing porridge.
• The timer is color-coded to let know how you close the wizard is to returning/waking.
• You can just sleep in your bed to pass time.
• You no longer need to spend real time in the pirate ship.
• There's no longer the spell-typing copy protection.
• No more dying accidentally to the Medusa.

That's about all the really annoying things about KQ3 "fixed".

If we count fan game SQ TLC the stupid squid puzzle had to download a save past that part.

Don''t forget the pendulum puzzle in GK3. (Gabriel's dying scream still gives me nightmares whenever I think of it. Sheesh!)

And what about Patti's long, long walk through the maze in LSL3? If you forget (or don't know about) even one thing before you start... game over.....

Soo.... Adeyke... have you ever played Gold Rush?

No. I take it that, if I had, there would be a lot of entries from it on my list?

Short story - yes.
Long story follows in tiny font:

I played Gold Rush a lot when I was 10-12-ish. At the time I barely spoke English and I couldn't understand why I died all the time.
In GR, you play a spot of adventure in Brooklyn, then you have to travel to California choosing one of three trails, and when you arrive there's another dangerous section awaiting.
Gold Rush is very cruel that way by the time you start travelling: to illustrate the perils of journeying to California, all three routes you can take there are random deaths. On the easiest one by land you may get cholera or fall off during a river crossing; on the hardest one you'll die at random while crossing a river whale tongue style; on the medium path you may get cholera at any stage of the journey, hit an iceberg or hit a rock during a storm. This path is... a real pain in the neck. It decides whether you will die as you leave Brooklyn and you'll immediately save after that. So, odds are you have gotten yourself a doomed game. Of course there's no indication that it's doomed every time - that's just something you find out after you've snuffed it several dozens of times already. Not to mention the leaky KQ5 boat type puzzle where you don't find out you needed some object you should've gotten long before you passed away from it.

Then there's the California section, where you'll have to pan for a lot of gold to get a good score and of course you'll start panning in a place where there's already somebody else you couldn't see because he was well-hidden behind a tree, and you'll get hanged. There's a mule that you have to brand - if you get too close to the fire, the mule will run, but it's a very fine line between close-enough-to-heat and too-far-lose-mule.
Then you'll have to follow the mule at some point, during which it's easy to lose him.

Eventually you'll hit a gold mine with lots of treacherous passages to move past. According to the game files, there's an extra bonus if you can traverse the mine without using your lamp - can't find any evidence of anyone managing that. I never even got to that point.

For my script I had to check for a lot of things to see if they were possible - doing this I attempted the medium route to California 50 times. I only made it 13 times.