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I just replayed TES4, and I have a question: Why, why, why does guard behaviour make no sense? *facepalm*

You can even kill someone, go to jail, come back out and you're a good guy again!!

But what really makes no sense... At the end of Thieves' Guild quest, you have the Cowl of Nocturnal, which makes you the Gray Fox. If you put it on and get caught, the guards confiscate all your belongings and give you rags to wear.

So here's my question:

Why don't they keep the Cowl of Nocturnal as evidence? Why do they even let you go, if they know that you are the Gray Fox??

I'd love to see an ending that goes something like this:

"It's all over, Gray Pox! *snicker* You like that? I made it up meself! I'll take all your stolen goods and - eek! By the Nine Divines! You're the Hero of Kvatch! But a common thief! You're coming with me!"

*tick tick tick* The next day...

"Get your Black Horse Courier! Bad cad kicked in nads!"

"Gimme that!" *reads*

Hero of Kvatch Revealed To Be Gray Fox

All of Cyrodiil was shocked - shocked, I say! - to learn that the Hero of Kvatch, Champion of Cyrodiil, Head of the Fighters' Guild, Archmage of the Guild of Mages, and Grand Champion of the Arena, was none other than the fearsome Gray Fox! Oh yeah, and also supposedly a Murderer in the Assassins' Guild. Whatevs. As if there's really a guild of assassins in Cyrodiil. Get real, willya?

The convicted Gray Fox, known variously as Lizard The Wizard, The Nord and His Sword, and Orky McOrcface, had no comment to make except "this is, like, so embarrassing."

Imperial City resident, Louisa the Breton Snob, commented, "Gasp! I can't believe it - a common criminal in our midst!" She then told me that my mother was a scamp and my father smelled of elderberry wine.

I inquired if he could speak to Louisa's husband, but Louisa replied in the negative, and further threatened me that unless I went away, she would taunt me a second time.

At this point, Louisa's bard strummed his lute and sang:

"Brave reporter, run away! (No!)
Bravely run away, away! (I won't!)

Louisa will not talk to you,
She'll beat you 'til you're black and blue
So brave reporter, out of here
and go and get yourself a beer!

Bravely visit local inn
and drink some ale or wine or gin,
Bravest of them all, you scribbler!"

I swear I'm not making this up.

For the Black Horse Courier, having boldly consumed 10 alcoholic drinks, this is the Khajiit Rajirr-With-Beer reporting.

The way the Elder Scrolls game treats crime by the player is a bit odd. You can commit any offense you want as long as you are willing to pay the fine. Crime really doesn't have any consequences if you have the gold.

As for the Gray Fox: "Whosoever wears it shall be lost in the shadows. His true nature shall be unknown to all who meet him. His identity shall be struck from all records and histories. Memory will hide in the shadows, refusing to record the name of the owner to any who meet him. He shall be known by the cowl and only by the cowl." So even if you take the Cowl off in front of the guards, they will forget who you are.

Another thing that seemed out of place to me was the Arena. It seems inconsistent with Imperial society. And even if they were fine with it, combat to the death for every match just doesn't make any practical sense. At the end, there's only you and all the other gladiators of any skill are all dead. So what happens to the games then?

notbobsmith wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:12 pm The way the Elder Scrolls game treats crime by the player is a bit odd. You can commit any offense you want as long as you are willing to pay the fine. Crime really doesn't have any consequences if you have the gold.

Or you could choose to go to jail. Then you can commit the offense AND keep your gold. Sure, you might lose a point of a random skill ...

Skyrim is even worse in that respect. If you choose to go to jail, you don't even lose a skill point. It's more like "OK, I'm just popping off to jail now ... *tick tick tick* Great! I'm out again! Let's go kill some guy!"

*facepalm* I don't get it. What's the point of being in jail? Isn't it to be punished...?

notbobsmith wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:12 pm As for the Gray Fox: "Whosoever wears it shall be lost in the shadows. His true nature shall be unknown to all who meet him. His identity shall be struck from all records and histories. Memory will hide in the shadows, refusing to record the name of the owner to any who meet him. He shall be known by the cowl and only by the cowl." So even if you take the Cowl off in front of the guards, they will forget who you are.

MusicallyInspired wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:15 pm I thought that when YOU the player got the Gray Fox Cowl that that spell was broken and it would only work if you took it off while not in view of guards. Because when you acquired the Elder Scroll and the previous Gray Fox used it to break the spell, it left it in a slightly less bound state. My impression was that, as an item, is was intended as a slightly easier method of evading capture and using the Gray Fox persona as a scapegoat for all your nefarious activities to leave your reputation intact, provided you took off the cowl in private.

Sure, sure. But I'm just wondering - if you are the Gray Fox, and you're dumb enough to dance about in front of guards with the Cowl of Nocturnal on - why don't they just confiscate the damn thing and put you in jail for life?

Instead, you go to jail ... and you come back out ... and you get the Cowl of Nocturnal back! What are they, stupid?

"Here's your Cowl back, Mr Fox. We hope you enjoyed our wonderful Hotel de Jail, complete with straw beds and guards spitting in your gruel. Please consider us the next time you carry out your nefarious, lawbreaking activities."

notbobsmith wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 9:12 pm Another thing that seemed out of place to me was the Arena. It seems inconsistent with Imperial society. And even if they were fine with it, combat to the death for every match just doesn't make any practical sense. At the end, there's only you and all the other gladiators of any skill are all dead. So what happens to the games then?

Hmm... I wasn't so put out by the Arena, as by the fact that the guards seem to be wearing some kind of generic medieval plate-mail. Apparently, it's canon that the Empire is supposed to be a take on the Roman Empire - in which case, the Arena fits just fine (as a take on gladiatorial fights, etc.)

What happens to the games after all the other gladiators are dead is simple: once a week, you can choose to have a fight-to-the-death against level-dependent monsters. If you're a low-level character, you can choose to fight Wolves or Goblins. If you're high-level, you can choose to fight Minotaurs. But I agree - the blue team vs. yellow team thing was more exciting.

I just wish they'd gone the whole hog with the Arena idea. See, in the Roman Empire, just about every city that could afford it would have a amphitheatre of their own, often with gladiatorial combat. Wouldn't it be fun to continue your combat career in Cheydinhal, or Leyawiin, or any of the 'provincial' towns?

It would also have been good if it wasn't a fight to the death. I wish you could choose to have mercy on your opponents. Most of the time, this is exactly what happened in the Roman Colosseum and in the amphitheatres. Owning gladiators was an expensive business - you fed them, you clothed them, you trained them - so you couldn't afford to just throw them away. Most of the time, gladiators who were killed were simply not in any shape to stand up any more, so it was a bit of a mercy killing.

Coming back to TES4, wouldn't it be good if your Arena opponents could drop to one knee and ask for mercy? What happened next was up to you. Maybe if you showed them mercy, you'd get a bit less gold but a bit more prestige from the crowd. If you kill them, the crowd would boo ("You rotten murderer, you!" ) but you'd get more gold. Stuff like that.

What's your view?

The spirit of the Gameplay must be maintained. Doesn't matter if it makes sense.

MusicallyInspired wrote: ↑Sun Sep 09, 2018 10:15 pm I thought that when YOU the player got the Gray Fox Cowl that that spell was broken and it would only work if you took it off while not in view of guards. Because when you acquired the Elder Scroll and the previous Gray Fox used it to break the spell, it left it in a slightly less bound state. My impression was that, as an item, is was intended as a slightly easier method of evading capture and using the Gray Fox persona as a scapegoat for all your nefarious activities to leave your reputation intact, provided you took off the cowl in private.

It's been a while, but from UESP.net: "You cannot be identified while wearing the cowl, and even if you take it off right in front of others, they won't associate you with the Gray Fox." and "Being seen by any guard when wearing the cowl will automatically result in the guard recognizing you as the Gray Fox and trying to arrest you. You are not given the normal options of going to jail or paying your fine; your only option is to resist arrest. If you immediately remove the cowl, you will be able to yield to the guard. The guard will have forgotten that he ever saw the Gray Fox and will treat you as a normal citizen." From what I've read, the guards will still chase you but you will have the option to yield.

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:06 am
Hmm... I wasn't so put out by the Arena, as by the fact that the guards seem to be wearing some kind of generic medieval plate-mail. Apparently, it's canon that the Empire is supposed to be a take on the Roman Empire - in which case, the Arena fits just fine (as a take on gladiatorial fights, etc.)

What happens to the games after all the other gladiators are dead is simple: once a week, you can choose to have a fight-to-the-death against level-dependent monsters. If you're a low-level character, you can choose to fight Wolves or Goblins. If you're high-level, you can choose to fight Minotaurs. But I agree - the blue team vs. yellow team thing was more exciting.

They are similar to Romans, although slavery is illegal almost throughout the empire (and I think completely by the time of TES4). But for the sake of argument let's say they like the arena combat thing, but combat to the death just couldn't work. The final match is between the two best fighters, and one of them ends up dead. Imagine track and field where none of the other competitors can come back except for the winner. Or a sports team where none of the other teams can come back next season. It would take years to get new talent for the arena. Meanwhile, they are stuck with you. Assuming you don't choose to retire or something. Then what?

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:06 am It would also have been good if it wasn't a fight to the death. I wish you could choose to have mercy on your opponents. Most of the time, this is exactly what happened in the Roman Colosseum and in the amphitheatres. Owning gladiators was an expensive business - you fed them, you clothed them, you trained them - so you couldn't afford to just throw them away. Most of the time, gladiators who were killed were simply not in any shape to stand up any more, so it was a bit of a mercy killing.

Coming back to TES4, wouldn't it be good if your Arena opponents could drop to one knee and ask for mercy? What happened next was up to you. Maybe if you showed them mercy, you'd get a bit less gold but a bit more prestige from the crowd. If you kill them, the crowd would boo ("You rotten murderer, you!" ) but you'd get more gold. Stuff like that.

What's your view?

I think fights between the pros usually weren't usually to the death. The ones that were were prisoners or convicts who were unskilled and was pretty much an execution. The mercy idea is actually pretty good. What was kind of odd is that when you kill your final opponent (I forget the Orc's name) some of the people treat it as if you did something wrong, even after everyone you killed to get there! (I think their response is the same whether you did the Orc's sidequest or not.)

Huh. That seems kind of silly. Chalk it up to poor memory. It has been over 10 years.

notbobsmith wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:18 pm

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 7:06 am Hmm... I wasn't so put out by the Arena, as by the fact that the guards seem to be wearing some kind of generic medieval plate-mail. Apparently, it's canon that the Empire is supposed to be a take on the Roman Empire - in which case, the Arena fits just fine (as a take on gladiatorial fights, etc.)

What happens to the games after all the other gladiators are dead is simple: once a week, you can choose to have a fight-to-the-death against level-dependent monsters. If you're a low-level character, you can choose to fight Wolves or Goblins. If you're high-level, you can choose to fight Minotaurs. But I agree - the blue team vs. yellow team thing was more exciting.

They are similar to Romans, although slavery is illegal almost throughout the empire (and I think completely by the time of TES4). But for the sake of argument let's say they like the arena combat thing, but combat to the death just couldn't work. The final match is between the two best fighters, and one of them ends up dead. Imagine track and field where none of the other competitors can come back except for the winner. Or a sports team where none of the other teams can come back next season. It would take years to get new talent for the arena. Meanwhile, they are stuck with you. Assuming you don't choose to retire or something. Then what?

Then... the Arena's stuck for good. After you become the Grand Champion, you can even leave the Arena and never come back. After all, what good is it for you to do their "special fights"? You risk your life, and you win gold. Whoop-dee-doo. You can do that with any other guild quest, and get either more gold or better "prizes".

"Good people of the Imperial City, welcome to the Arena! Our Grand Champion is a yellow-bellied coward who hasn't shown up, so the Goblins win by default! Woo-hoo! Go Goblins!"

Seriously, though, real-life gladiators - presuming they were good enough - sometimes could and did retire, if they were freed by their owner. (Yes, anyone who became a Roman gladiator - regardless of whether he was a slave, a soldier, an emperor or what-have-you - automatically became a scummier-than-thou slave. People would cross the street to avoid them. But paradoxically, gladiators were very popular with Roman women. If a gladiator was wounded, his blood was considered sacred even to the point of being sold as a cure for infertility. You may draw your own conclusions if you like - I won't say what I think about this!)

It's possible that Roman women liked the gladiator idea so much that some of them even became gladiatrices themselves, although the evidence for this is scant. This is mainly due to the Roman chauvinist attitude being such that gladiatrices were regarded as exotic, absurd or (if drawn from the upper classes) outrageous. (I'm not passing judgment, by the way; the Romans and Greeks, largely speaking, are notorious for their chauvinism, although some women of that era achieved enormous fame and fortune).

I guess the Imperial City Arena is progressive by comparison. At least it doesn't make fun of women fighters.

notbobsmith wrote: ↑Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:18 pm What was kind of odd is that when you kill your final opponent (I forget the Orc's name) some of the people treat it as if you did something wrong, even after everyone you killed to get there! (I think their response is the same whether you did the Orc's sidequest or not.)

His name is Agronak gro-Malog. (I remember because the announcer in the Arena always draws it out and bellows it, WWF-style. "Agrnoak groooooooooooo-Malog!")

I agree, it's weird that if you kill him, it's treated as murder - but although you don't get a bounty, you do get an invitation into the Assassins' Guild the next time you sleep. The first time this happened to me, I thought "What the fudge...? Who did I kill???"

***EDIT***

Ah, from Origin of the Gray Prince...

Killing Agronak in the Arena after completing this quest will be counted as a murder by the game as he is a non-evil NPC who does not attack you (though this will not result in a bounty only because there are no other actual NPCs in the Arena at the time) so if you have not murdered anyone before completing this quest line, it will attract the attention of the Dark Brotherhood. However, killing him in the Arena without completing this quest line will NOT attract the Brotherhood's attention.

This bug is fixed by the Unofficial Oblivion Patch, available here.

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 9:22 am
I agree, it's weird that if you kill him, it's treated as murder - but although you don't get a bounty, you do get an invitation into the Assassins' Guild the next time you sleep. The first time this happened to me, I thought "What the fudge...? Who did I kill???"

If you don't complete the quest, he will fight you normally and it won't be counted as murder either. Regardless of how you do it, some of the others in the arena waiting area seem disappointed that you killed him. "I hope it was worth it." was one of the comments. It just seemed odd. What were they expecting? "Two men enter; one man leave."

True... though I think only the Blue Team Gladiator (who never actually fights! ) is disappointed. That's who you're thinking of - he says something like "You killed Agronak. He taught me everything I know. He was my mentor, my friend ... well, congratulations, Grand Champion. I hope it was worth it."

That (sort of) makes sense. From his POV, some complete stranger strolls in out of nowhere, kills all the competitors in the Arena - including "my mentor and friend" - and strolls back out somewhere. You can't help him for being bitter, I guess. (I just wish there was some way to make amends, or something). *shrug*