SHP Forums

Saw this on Youtube.

OK ... let me put my critic's hat on. (I'm sorry, but everyone's allowed to be a critic!)

Before we move on to more important things ... <RANT MODE == ON>

May I say that I am a little tired of people giving their heroes/heroines 'unusual' names like "Skye" in an effort to sound unique? I've seen heroes with names like Appletree, Sharkwave and Earth, so I hope you can see why I'm not too impressed with "Skye".

If you're going to call your heroine "Skye", please explain why. Is there some cool history behind the name? Can she do some kind of magic connected with the sky? That would add to the game, and make it more fun. But if you're calling her "Skye" just because that name's been fashionable lately ... well.

OK, rant over. So, I watched the first 6 minutes of this. Here's my review:

1. The Good:
a. The Art is nicely done. Reminds me of early-days LucasArts. (I'm not an artist, so I can't offer much more critique than that. Sorry).
b. The Music is very good. Soothing.
c. The icons etc.

2. The Not-so-good:
a. The dialogue is trite. "Wake up, Skye. Come on, wake up." Try shaking her, ghost druid. I've written and re-written a hell of a lot of dialogue over the years (and sometimes rewrote a scene 5 or 6 times).

Speaking of the dialogue ... uh, not fun at all. Skye is speaking to the "Naked Druid", and she's not allowed to ask him why he sitting there in the buff? Or whether she should get him a pillow or something? (All we can see is that Skye thinks "It's kind of worrying" that he's in the buff ... which is obvious).

Also, she tells him that she's on a special mission, and all he can say is "Good luck"? Nothing else (like "What's it all about?") He's not curious or anything? :-\ Most people would be.

b. The spelling could use some work (e.g. "responsability"?)

c. You're being railroaded into the plot, and you're not allowed to say no. "You come up here in the middle of the night, wake me up, and then ask me for help?! Bugger off and ask someone else!"

(I know it's a cheat, and if you do say that, it's either Game Over or they would say "There is no-one else" etc. But it would be nice to try).

3. The Indifferent:
The setting is confused. There's a menhir (why? What's it there for), and two low-set houses, and a big, two-story communal hall. So:

a. The two houses and big communal hall looks like a Norse/Viking setting, but the Menhir suggests a Gallic/French setting instead.
b. This village is awfully small. Even in the Dark Ages, three houses wouldn't qualify as a hamlet, let alone a village.
c. MONEY. The "Naked Druid" makes money out of his wooden figurines ... but:

i. Who does he sell them to, if there's no-one around but the druids of the village?
ii. What does he need money for? There doesn't seem to be a market in the village.
iii. What does ANYONE need money for?
iv. Finally ... calling your money "silver coins" is -- well, meh. No-one says "silver coins" in real life. When was the last time a coworker said to you "Hey, can you lend me 5 silver coins? I'll pay you back Thursday"?

There are LOTS of names for coins. Think of what your setting is, do some research on what they called their coins, and go with that. (If the setting is Germanic, you can go with "pfennig", the German name for a penny ... etc., etc.) Remember what the Coles did with Quest for Glory? Every game had its own setting, its own money, its own "culture". That's what made QfG memorable.

OK, I know some of this sounds petty. It isn't meant to be. A fantasy is nice and all, but fantasy has a way of reflecting reality, even in small ways. Looking into those small ways, and using them in your game, makes the game richer and more fun.

Anyway, that's my two (rather large) pfennigs!

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:32 pm May I say that I am a little tired of people giving their heroes/heroines 'unusual' names like "Skye" in an effort to sound unique? I've seen heroes with names like Appletree, Sharkwave and Earth, so I hope you can see why I'm not too impressed with "Skye".
If you're going to call your heroine "Skye", please explain why. Is there some cool history behind the name? Can she do some kind of magic connected with the sky? That would add to the game, and make it more fun. But if you're calling her "Skye" just because that name's been fashionable lately ... well.

It could be their eyes are as blue as the sky, or blue is the favorite color of the parents, or it could be someone else was named Skye, etc., etc.
Names have never bothered me.

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:32 pm a. The Art is nicely done. Reminds me of early-days LucasArts. (I'm not an artist, so I can't offer much more critique than that. Sorry).
b. The Music is very good. Soothing.
c. The icons etc.

Agreed.

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:32 pm 2. The Not-so-good:
a. The dialogue is trite. "Wake up, Skye. Come on, wake up." Try shaking her, ghost druid. I've written and re-written a hell of a lot of dialogue over the years (and sometimes rewrote a scene 5 or 6 times).

I didn't mind that dialogue.

However, having played the demo a little - the dialogue options the character says as selections are... definitely from a younger generation.

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:32 pm c. You're being railroaded into the plot, and you're not allowed to say no. "You come up here in the middle of the night, wake me up, and then ask me for help?! Bugger off and ask someone else!"

That's every adventure game.

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:32 pm 3. The Indifferent:
The setting is confused. There's a menhir (why? What's it there for), and two low-set houses, and a big, two-story communal hall. So:
b. This village is awfully small. Even in the Dark Ages, three houses wouldn't qualify as a hamlet, let alone a village.

That's common. You don't see villages, for example, around Daventry.

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:32 pm c. MONEY. The "Naked Druid" makes money out of his wooden figurines ... but:
i. Who does he sell them to, if there's no-one around but the druids of the village?
ii. What does he need money for? There doesn't seem to be a market in the village.
iii. What does ANYONE need money for?
iv. Finally ... calling your money "silver coins" is -- well, meh. No-one says "silver coins" in real life. When was the last time a coworker said to you "Hey, can you lend me 5 silver coins? I'll pay you back Thursday"?

Food? Pay for shelter if he doesn't have a place? For clothes?

Like Rath said, it looks very LucasArts in terms of style. There's a screenshot in GOG's page that looks a lot like Spielburg, though.

Tawmis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:11 pm

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:32 pm May I say that I am a little tired of people giving their heroes/heroines 'unusual' names like "Skye" in an effort to sound unique? I've seen heroes with names like Appletree, Sharkwave and Earth, so I hope you can see why I'm not too impressed with "Skye".
If you're going to call your heroine "Skye", please explain why. Is there some cool history behind the name? Can she do some kind of magic connected with the sky? That would add to the game, and make it more fun. But if you're calling her "Skye" just because that name's been fashionable lately ... well.

It could be their eyes are as blue as the sky, or blue is the favorite color of the parents, or it could be someone else was named Skye, etc., etc.
Names have never bothered me.

Skye is a name. Not terribly common (Ranked 776 in the US) and probably picked by people who wanted something "different", but it is a name. Possibly from the Scottish island of Skye, or maybe an abbreviation of the Dutch name Schuyler (pronounced Skyler).

Tawmis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:11 pm

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:32 pm 2. The Not-so-good:
a. The dialogue is trite. "Wake up, Skye. Come on, wake up." Try shaking her, ghost druid. I've written and re-written a hell of a lot of dialogue over the years (and sometimes rewrote a scene 5 or 6 times).

I didn't mind that dialogue.

However, having played the demo a little - the dialogue options the character says as selections are... definitely from a younger generation.

Yes, that's what I meant - and written FOR a younger generation.

So, I'm probably not the target audience. Oh, well. (Or maybe I'm just Rath the Grumpy Old Fart (:P), who can't remember what a wonder it was to play his first adventure game...)

Tawmis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:11 pm

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:32 pm c. You're being railroaded into the plot, and you're not allowed to say no. "You come up here in the middle of the night, wake me up, and then ask me for help?! Bugger off and ask someone else!"

That's every adventure game.

I respectfully disagree. In Heroine's Quest, you're allowed to tell The Three Norns "No". (Of course, it's Game Over, but at least you can).

Tawmis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:11 pm

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:32 pm 3. The Indifferent:
The setting is confused. There's a menhir (why? What's it there for), and two low-set houses, and a big, two-story communal hall. So:
b. This village is awfully small. Even in the Dark Ages, three houses wouldn't qualify as a hamlet, let alone a village.

That's common. You don't see villages, for example, around Daventry.

Perhaps. Maybe I'm comparing it (again) with places in Quest for Glory or Heroine's Quest? Spielburg and Fornsigtuna etc. are much bigger. Even the little village in Heroine's Quest is bigger than three houses.

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 5:32 pm c. MONEY. The "Naked Druid" makes money out of his wooden figurines ... but:
i. Who does he sell them to, if there's no-one around but the druids of the village?
ii. What does he need money for? There doesn't seem to be a market in the village.
iii. What does ANYONE need money for?
iv. Finally ... calling your money "silver coins" is -- well, meh. No-one says "silver coins" in real life. When was the last time a coworker said to you "Hey, can you lend me 5 silver coins? I'll pay you back Thursday"?

Food? Pay for shelter if he doesn't have a place? For clothes?
[/quote]

Sure, here's the point: if the village is so small, there's no need for money. If you want money, you need specialised equipment and a blacksmith to operate the die cast, etc. Why would you do that, if there are so few people? You can simply trade.

"Ho there, good weaver! I'll give you this fine wooden figurine in exchange for a pair of yon woven trousers!"
"Ahhhhhh! Yes, take the trousers ... please! And put them on!"
"My thanks to thee, O--"
"Now."

But maybe this isn't that kind of game (i.e, the kind that employs sarcasm)... or is it?
===================

notbobsmith wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:27 am Like Rath said, it looks very LucasArts in terms of style. There's a screenshot in GOG's page that looks a lot like Spielburg, though.

Yes, I noticed that. I presume you mean this one?



Just curious: what makes this look like Spielburg? The only thing this has in common with Spielburg is, it has a bakery. To me, it looks more like the town of Melee, from Monkey Island 1.

notbobsmith wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:27 am Skye is a name. Not terribly common (Ranked 776 in the US) and probably picked by people who wanted something "different", but it is a name. Possibly from the Scottish island of Skye, or maybe an abbreviation of the Dutch name Schuyler (pronounced Skyler).

Your first guess is correct! It's derived from the Scottish island. (I checked this in Behind The Name, a database of names, where they came from, and how popular they are).

This is a favourite database of mine, especially when writing stories. If my setting is ancient Egypt, I try to pick ancient Egyptian names, etc.

As an aside: this game made me curious because of the title. The only "Legend of Skye" I'm aware of is the story of Bonnie Prince Charlie, who escaped to France via the island of Skye.

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:45 am So, I'm probably not the target audience. Oh, well. (Or maybe I'm just Rath the Grumpy Old Fart (:P), who can't remember what a wonder it was to play his first adventure game...)

Yeah, I found that jaunting.

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:45 am

Tawmis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:11 pm That's every adventure game.

I respectfully disagree. In Heroine's Quest, you're allowed to tell The Three Norns "No". (Of course, it's Game Over, but at least you can).

Oh, so one game out of how many adventure games?

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:45 am

Tawmis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:11 pm That's common. You don't see villages, for example, around Daventry.

Perhaps. Maybe I'm comparing it (again) with places in Quest for Glory or Heroine's Quest? Spielburg and Fornsigtuna etc. are much bigger. Even the little village in Heroine's Quest is bigger than three houses.

Look at the first Hero's Quest/Quest for Glory - the first town has.... like 4 live in buildings? Because several of them are businesses (tavern, guild, magic shop).

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:45 am Sure, here's the point: if the village is so small, there's no need for money. If you want money, you need specialised equipment and a blacksmith to operate the die cast, etc. Why would you do that, if there are so few people? You can simply trade.

But you still may need to trade with other villages in area for goods.

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:45 am

It definitely looks like that.

Tawmis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:16 am

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:45 am

Tawmis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:11 pm That's every adventure game.

I respectfully disagree. In Heroine's Quest, you're allowed to tell The Three Norns "No". (Of course, it's Game Over, but at least you can).

Oh, so one game out of how many adventure games?

Sure, but it's still an exception (and a refreshing one, too).

In D&D, your players don't have to play the adventure you have for them. They can get distracted and swig some ale, and then get back to it. So ... how about programming your computer game to do the same?

It used to be that way (i.e. "You are the hero! Now go on this quest!") because of time constraints, or space constraints on the floppy disk. But now, with downloadable games from Steam/GOG/etc., you can make your game as long or short as you want. So if you really want, your hero should have the ability to say "No", even if it means Game Over.

Tawmis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:16 am

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:45 am

Tawmis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:11 pm That's common. You don't see villages, for example, around Daventry.

Perhaps. Maybe I'm comparing it (again) with places in Quest for Glory or Heroine's Quest? Spielburg and Fornsigtuna etc. are much bigger. Even the little village in Heroine's Quest is bigger than three houses.

Look at the first Hero's Quest/Quest for Glory - the first town has.... like 4 live in buildings? Because several of them are businesses (tavern, guild, magic shop).

Yes, but the businesses are still part of the town. In this game, there are ... two houses and one hall. A tiny village ... sorry.

Still, if it works ...? It's just a bit unnerving, to me, to see a village so teeny-tiny. I keep thinking: where are the other people? There are druids, sure, but what do they live on? Where are the farmers who keep the druids fed? Where are the servants who fetch the water, whittle the staffs for the druids, clean their robes etc.?

Oh, right -- they're off-stage, doing all that "unimportant" stuff. OK ... but it'd be nice to see it. Let's go to the kitchen and talk to the cook, who can tell our hero to bugger off. Let's wander down to the laundry, where the head person can call our hero daft for wandering in on laundry day. It's dangerous! Get out of here!

Maybe it's just me, but I'd like to see that stuff. It helps to flesh out the game-world, and make it seem more "alive" and less of a construct. And maybe -- just maybe -- our hero can have puzzles to solve there, or people to talk to. (OK, maybe not in a game like this, but maybe in a more complex game?)

I still remember playing the first "Discworld" computer game. Our hero wakes up in a magical university, and talks to the Arch-Chancellor. Right away, he can explore the university's library
and dining hall, but also supply closet, kitchen and gardens, and eventually the city outside the university gates. It becomes complex and involving, and draws you in.

I'm sorry! I know not every game designer has the time or the budget for that. *blush* But then, if you didn't have to deal with time and budget pressures, how simple or complex would you want a game to be?

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:46 pm In D&D, your players don't have to play the adventure you have for them. They can get distracted and swig some ale, and then get back to it. So ... how about programming your computer game to do the same?

It used to be that way (i.e. "You are the hero! Now go on this quest!") because of time constraints, or space constraints on the floppy disk. But now, with downloadable games from Steam/GOG/etc., you can make your game as long or short as you want. So if you really want, your hero should have the ability to say "No", even if it means Game Over.

Using D&D and computer games is apples and oranges. Because as a DM, you can make "free choice" appear as an illusion very easily.
"The haunted manor you've been assigned to investigate lies ahead."
"We want to go in this random cave, over here."
DM just shifts everything into the cave, and turns out the root of the haunting came from that nearby cave and not the house itself.

For computer games, a lot of things are "triggers." In order for this door to open, the hero must first have collected the apples for the centaurs. This triggers DOOR_01 to open.

And if someone is purposely (and this is clearly PURPOSELY) making a retro-like adventure, why wouldn't you follow the golden standard? If someone's there, they need your help. If an item is on the screen, pick up anything that isn't nailed down - and if it is nailed down - you may need to get a hammer to pry it free.

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:46 pm

Tawmis wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 11:16 am

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:45 am

Tawmis wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2024 9:11 pm That's common. You don't see villages, for example, around Daventry.

Perhaps. Maybe I'm comparing it (again) with places in Quest for Glory or Heroine's Quest? Spielburg and Fornsigtuna etc. are much bigger. Even the little village in Heroine's Quest is bigger than three houses.

Look at the first Hero's Quest/Quest for Glory - the first town has.... like 4 live in buildings? Because several of them are businesses (tavern, guild, magic shop).

Yes, but the businesses are still part of the town. In this game, there are ... two houses and one hall. A tiny village ... sorry.

Most people don't live within their business. So by your logic - those people in their business either live in those houses - which means the town of Speilburg has a total of like... six citizens?

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:46 pm Still, if it works ...? It's just a bit unnerving, to me, to see a village so teeny-tiny. I keep thinking: where are the other people? There are druids, sure, but what do they live on? Where are the farmers who keep the druids fed? Where are the servants who fetch the water, whittle the staffs for the druids, clean their robes etc.?

That never crossed your mind in King's Quest?

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:46 pm I'm sorry! I know not every game designer has the time or the budget for that. *blush* But then, if you didn't have to deal with time and budget pressures, how simple or complex would you want a game to be?

For an Indie person, they're probably just happy to get the game out the door.

Look at some of those Kickstarters from former Sierra folks. I don't think a single one of them was on time. And some of them had to take loans against their own property. And one of them, never released yet (but is still in the works).

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:45 am

notbobsmith wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:27 am Like Rath said, it looks very LucasArts in terms of style. There's a screenshot in GOG's page that looks a lot like Spielburg, though.

Yes, I noticed that. I presume you mean this one?



Just curious: what makes this look like Spielburg? The only thing this has in common with Spielburg is, it has a bakery. To me, it looks more like the town of Melee, from Monkey Island 1.

I guess it just reminded me of this: But then, maybe both took their inspiration from a town like Rothenburg ob der Tauber.

Tawmis wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:27 am Using D&D and computer games is apples and oranges. Because as a DM, you can make "free choice" appear as an illusion very easily.
"The haunted manor you've been assigned to investigate lies ahead."
"We want to go in this random cave, over here."
DM just shifts everything into the cave, and turns out the root of the haunting came from that nearby cave and not the house itself.

For computer games, a lot of things are "triggers." In order for this door to open, the hero must first have collected the apples for the centaurs. This triggers DOOR_01 to open.

And if someone is purposely (and this is clearly PURPOSELY) making a retro-like adventure, why wouldn't you follow the golden standard? If someone's there, they need your help. If an item is on the screen, pick up anything that isn't nailed down - and if it is nailed down - you may need to get a hammer to pry it free.

Hey, fair enough. I never said anyone had to make an adventure game that I like, simply to please me. I'm just saying ... there are lots of possibilities.

Take "Dragon Age: Origins", for example. When it's time to follow Duncan and become a Grey Warden, at the expense of leaving your old life behind, the hero/heroine has the option to say "No". (Of course, you MUST. But it's interesting to see what happens if you say "No").

Now, I'm not comparing an indie game with a powerhouse like "Dragon Age". Obviously, there's no comparison. (I'm also not comparing an indie game with D&D).

The only reason I bring it up is that the hero has the power (or rather, the ILLUSION of power) to refuse the quest. It's an interesting and amusing option - but that's all it is, a CHOICE.

If the game doesn't give you that choice, fair enough. It's a different kind of game.

Tawmis wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:27 am

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:46 pm Look at the first Hero's Quest/Quest for Glory - the first town has.... like 4 live in buildings? Because several of them are businesses (tavern, guild, magic shop).

Yes, but the businesses are still part of the town. In this game, there are ... two houses and one hall. A tiny village ... sorry.

Most people don't live within their business. So by your logic - those people in their business either live in those houses - which means the town of Speilburg has a total of like... six citizens?[/quote]

Not necessarily. We don't know where the business-people (like Zara the magic-user, or the centaur apple-seller) live. Maybe they live in their business, and maybe they have other arrangements. We just don't know.

Tawmis wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:27 am

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:46 pm I'm sorry! I know not every game designer has the time or the budget for that. *blush* But then, if you didn't have to deal with time and budget pressures, how simple or complex would you want a game to be?

For an Indie person, they're probably just happy to get the game out the door.

Look at some of those Kickstarters from former Sierra folks. I don't think a single one of them was on time. And some of them had to take loans against their own property. And one of them, never released yet (but is still in the works).

Of course! I agree with you. I know there are realistic constraints of time and budget, as I said before. I'm not a game designer, so I don't know as much about these as you do.
===============================================================

notbobsmith wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:33 am

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 5:45 am

notbobsmith wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 12:27 am Like Rath said, it looks very LucasArts in terms of style. There's a screenshot in GOG's page that looks a lot like Spielburg, though.

Yes, I noticed that. I presume you mean this one?



Just curious: what makes this look like Spielburg? The only thing this has in common with Spielburg is, it has a bakery. To me, it looks more like the town of Melee, from Monkey Island 1.

I guess it just reminded me of this:
009.jpg

But then, maybe both took their inspiration from a town like Rothenburg ob der Tauber.

Interesting. The same scene appears in Monkey Island 1, in the city of Melee. See here, on Pinterest.

How awesome!

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 5:42 am

Tawmis wrote: ↑Thu Apr 04, 2024 12:27 am

Rath Darkblade wrote: ↑Wed Apr 03, 2024 6:46 pm Look at the first Hero's Quest/Quest for Glory - the first town has.... like 4 live in buildings? Because several of them are businesses (tavern, guild, magic shop).

Yes, but the businesses are still part of the town. In this game, there are ... two houses and one hall. A tiny village ... sorry.

Most people don't live within their business. So by your logic - those people in their business either live in those houses - which means the town of Speilburg has a total of like... six citizens?

Not necessarily. We don't know where the business-people (like Zara the magic-user, or the centaur apple-seller) live. Maybe they live in their business, and maybe they have other arrangements. We just don't know.
[/quote]

I may be wrong - but isn't the centaur business - just the apple display?
As for living somewhere else - that would be impossible in Quest for Glory 1. As the only way out of the valley is past the giant, since everything else is blocked off. So we know the healer lives outside. But we see no other homes.
And if you take the castle in Quest for Glory 1. That's a mighty small court yard. This castle only has a stable on the right and the other thing on the left?

They're just gonna show what's typically relevant.

And the houses in Legend of Skye, sort of look to have that Viking hall feel. Who is to say they don't all sleep there?

Or being druidic they sleep out in the wild and just meet in this small hamlet thing for business and celebrations?