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Hi everyone,

I'm slowly but surely working on a sequel to the legally questionable Adventure: The Inside Job. I've got the main plot and characters worked out, but there are a couple of game elements that I've been having creative difficulties coming up with, and I thought I'd ask for help here.

My first problem is coming up with more things for Thalia (the game's protagonist) to deal with. For those of you that haven't played the game, Thalia is a character from a canceled adventure game who is currently employed as an agent in the Adventure branch of the Computer Game Maintenance Squad -- the organization that does its best to keep all computer games of all genres up and running from the inside (hence the game's title).

Some of the problems she deals with have to do with game characters running amok in games other than their own, but most of her problems have to do with correcting or at least "smoothing out" plot inconsistencies -- and there's no shortage of those in adventure games. Problems that were either dealt with or merely mentioned in ATIJ include:

-Roger's boot color changing from Space Quest 2 to 3
-The tape recorder being rewound in Shivers when by all accounts, it shouldn't have been
-The time paradox involving the bowling ball at the end of Day of the Tentacle
-An illogical happening involving the dog in the Full Throttle junkyard
-The transition from Monkey Island 2 to 3 (enough said)

In almost all of these situations, Thalia has to find a way to patch up the continuity problems, e.g., switching Roger's boots in between games, putting another bowling ball in its proper place before Bernard and Co. arrive.

However, aside from a few more plotholes in various Sierra and LucasArts games, I can't think of any more sizeable ones. Does anyone know of a good site that records things like this, or better yet, does anyone know any interesting plot inconsistencies that they think might work in a scenario like this?


My second problem is a bit more obscure. Though some of the scenes from ATIJ are original, many of the scenes in are from published adventure games. One of the more important scenes that I plan to have in the sequel is one that I want to be from a published game (preferably an obscure one or a lesser-known version), and it needs to consist of:

-A room that almost fills the screen
-At least one visible doorway
-A chandelier (or some other large, heavy object) hanging from the ceiling

This may sound like a very odd request, but the game would really work much better if this scene were a pre-existing one rather than an original one. A few candidates for this role are the scullery in KQ5, the kitchen in MI1, and possibly the king's (or queen's) throne room in Goblins 3 (this last one may pose a problem since there are a lot of characters in both scenes, and I haven't been able to find a good extractor for Coktel Vision's backgrounds). However, I haven't been able to think of any other rooms that fit this bill. Can anyone here think of one?

By the way, I'll be sure to credit anyone who helps me out in the game's credits.

Thanks in advance.

Regarding plots or puzzles, you could always look into LSL4 for ideas, or find out who put that bottle of "Drink Me" on the table in KQ6. Is there any patch problems from past games you could get ideas from?

I'm trying to think of a chandelier scene, but the only one I can think of is Wilbur's living room from "Orion Burger" (because his aunt is hanging from it every other time you go in.)

Looking forward to seeing the game!

First thing that springs to mind is St George's in GK1.

My suggestion is don't reference Sierra or LucasArts characters and games. At the very least, don't use the exact names. You really don't want to deal with legal issues.

You might want to ask the ScummVM devs (specifically the ones involved with supporting the GOB engine) and see if they know how to extract or export background images from the Goblins games.

I thought of an interesting game element/puzzle that would be intriguing to see in a game and be in line with ATIJ's concepts but be appropriately different and slightly bigger for a sequel. Maybe Thalia could take the place of certain game characters who either go missing or end up sick by using a device that changes her "costume" (which Scumm characters are called internally in the engine) to the appearance of the missing character and have to play that part in a game that that person is in. Maybe you could require a couple/few objects to pull it off. Like a costume appearance transforming device, a device to make your voice sound like the character's voice or change the subtitle colour or subtitle style to speech box or whatever to blend in with that specific game with that specific character's attributes. Or maybe some other interesting gizmo I can't think of right now.

Maybe another idea would be to do a Back to the Future 2 type of puzzle where you have to work behind the scenes in an active adventure game being played to trigger a certain scripted event to make the game continue. Maybe the person in charge of doing this behind the scenes is missing or sick or something and you have to take his place.

Monkey Island 2 spoilers: The MI2 ending is just screaming to be a fourth wall breaker and somehow play an active part in ATIJ's world. Like maybe Big Whoop isn't really a portal to another dimension, but and escape back door to other hallways where you can access areas to other games that LeChuck found and decided to try to break the game world with. And maybe Curse of Monkey Island was Thalia's group's attempt to explain it away to players in hopes that they wouldn't be discovered. Maybe that would be better as a reference than an actual game element?

Just ranting some ideas. All this is probably more legally questionable as reproducing key game sequences rather than just putting in a few screenshots, some of which aren't even acessible in the game.

I like that "fill in for the NPC" idea with the costume too.

I can't come up with any more plot inconsistencies off the top of my head without grasping at straws. It seems you covered all the major ones with the first game. But you could always change the kinds of problems Thalia has to solve instead of just smooth out plot inconsistencies all the time.

I'd look at what real emergency services do and see if they can be related to adventure games in any way. Domestic disputes, fire alarms, traffic accidents, etc. I'm pretty sure NPCs cause enough problems as it is when the player isn't watching. A nice thing about your game is that you have enough source material to experiment with all kinds of "what if" situations.

MI,

Maybe you could include "spoiler" tags when talking about games? Not everyone here has played some games, especially hard-to-find ones like Monkey Island 2.

Well, it's all mentioned in Curse of Monkey Island, which is a much newer game. I usually don't add spoiler tags for games that are almost 20 years old. I'll add them, though.

Heh...I don't want to give anything away by saying this, but the "Thalia filling in for another character" thing actually is going to happen in the sequel. I won't say anything more than that, except that it looks like we're sort of on the same wavelength with that idea, MI.

As for problems besides patching up plotholes, I've got several of those planned. I was just hoping that I could add a few non-Sierra, non-LucasArts plotholes to the mix. And I must say, I really like that MI2 idea, and I might just find a way to work that in in some subtle manner. Thanks for the inspiration!

I wouldnt add anything From Monkey Island in your next installment or you will have problems galore. I would add some stuff from the Space Quest games and maybe Something from Leisure Suit Larry. And Maybe something from Freddy Pharkas. With the Freddy Pharkas Idea have like a Western theme land like you did with KQ1 AGI/EGA and KQ7.

As far as non-Sierra/LucasArts games go, there's a game called Altered Destiny that's pretty bug-ridden. I remember on the very first screen the game broke somehow by not triggering the code to draw the main character at a distance when he walked through an arch-way. This caused him to ignore walkable and blockable room areas and allowed him to walk over cliff on air. It was pretty bizarre (almost as bizarre as the game itself!). But as far as plotholes go I can't think of anything off-hand.

Also I don't see the big deal in parodying popular games in a fangame. It's more like a reference rather than infringment anyway. But all that aside I don't see any bigname companies freaking out over a little (flattering) fangame made for/by a niche adventure community with some minor graphical references to their material. It's not like it's a remake or a sequel.

MusicallyInspired wrote:Also I don't see the big deal in parodying popular games in a fangame. It's more like a reference rather than infringment anyway. But all that aside I don't see any bigname companies freaking out over a little (flattering) fangame made for/by a niche adventure community with some minor graphical references to their material. It's not like it's a remake or a sequel.

If the game is a parody, then he's fine. "Fair Use" covers both parodies and educational work.

However, using intellectual property that doesn't belong to you -- even for a free product -- is illegal and could land a lawsuit in your lap (although a cease-and-desist letter is more likely). The chances of major companies noticing or caring about a free game are minor, but if they did find out and felt like causing some problems, they could and would be legally entitled to do so.

I am aware that technically, creating a game with pre-existing characters, worlds and what-have-you in it, even a completely free game, is illegal. However, though I know that I am treading on thin ice here, I consider myself to be at least fairly safe since there have been several games using ripped graphics and characters from pre-existing adventure games that have been around for years without their creators being faced with legal issues (as far as I know of), even fangames. One big example is the AGS game Night of the Hermit, which came out in 2001, shortly after Escape from Monkey Island was released. Not only does it star Herman Toothrot from the MI games and use his sprite, but it uses sprites from numerous other LucasArts games as well, and the game itself is not only a sequel to MI2, but in a way a prequel to Maniac Mansion.

I know the "just because everyone's doing it doesn't mean it's right" saying applies here, and I'm prepared to face the consequences should my luck run out. Even if it ever does, if I've made just a few people nostalgic for the games I've included in ATIJ and its sequel or even inspired some people to buy a game mentioned in them that they've never heard of before, I'll be satisfied.

But Fender, what you said is a good idea, considering the sudden Monkey Island revival. I definitely won't be using any characters or locations from MI in this game. (By the way: Pretty bizarre how the outro of ATIJ was full of questions about the future of the adventure genre and whether it would ever experience another "renaissance", and now this happens. Crazy.)

And thanks for the tip about Altered Destiny, Musically Inspired. I might have glanced at that game once before, but I'll look into it now.