The TSL critique thread

[Collector]

We already have a couple of TSL threads here, but I have noticed quite a few threads on other boards critiquing the game. Many of the flaws that others have pointed out are legitimate complaints, usually offered in the form of constructive criticism, but Phoenix Online seems to not be reacting well to it. I understand that something that they have invested so much of themselves and time into can make one a little defensive, but some things should be addressed. I don't agree with all, but most of the criticisms are shared by many.

One of the most common points raised is the long-winded narration. One of the things that made KQ6 so engrossing was that there was so much that you could click on and get a response, even if it had nothing to do with any puzzle or story and could not be added to the inventory. It added to the exploration of the game world. Where TSL went wrong was that many of the descriptions were too long winded. The good thing was that you could click to end it, so this one didn't bother me too much.

Initially I felt that it came across as being too hammy, but once I was able to get past just the intro, I realized that the voice acting was fairly decent. The hammy feel was due to the over emoting of the animation and the dialog could have been much better. But then, following the likes of Jane Jensen's writing is some pretty tall timber to follow.

Much of this cannot reasonably be fixed at this point, but POS (they really need to find a different acronym) should be reacting better to what their fans are saying. If they do wish to go commercial, they need to remember that the best software comes from companies that take customer feedback seriously.

Post your reactions to the game here. What would you have changed, if you could, and what did you like?

[MusicallyInspired]

Some of my thoughts:

Yes, you can skip the dialogue and mute the narrator if you want but I don't want to do that. I'm forced to skip the dialogue because it's so long-winded when I'd much rather be able to read and listen to all the interactions without growing a beard (or growing my beard longer, as the case may be).

I'm happy that they're trying to implement a feature to choose between the long-winded narrations and shortened versions but I'm absolutely abhorred and shocked to find that all the TSL fanboys on the forums are defending it to the death and are dead-set against adding such a feature so it won't prolong the releases of future episodes.......really? You've waited 8 years and you can't wait a little longer to get the game polished a little more and add a couple extra features so much more of the KQ community can enjoy the game? That's fair. That's real fair. They get what they want earlier and the rest of us have to deal with a product we're never going to be happy with because they just can't wait. They're a selfish behind-smooching bunch over there.

Sinister, on the Infamous Adventures forum, actually had a brilliant solution. Implement multiple interactions so that if you want to get more narration just keep clicking until you're done reading/listening to all the information.

Everybody keeps saying "Just skip the narration if it bugs you" but as I said, besides the fact that you have to skip through like 3 paragraphs of text sometimes, I don't want to skip them. I want to interact with objects. That part of adventure gaming isn't lost to me. I want to read/hear the descriptions. I just don't want them to be so dang long.

Regarding the dark storyline they seem to be moving in. I'm reserving my judgment for now, but I've heard things regarding the story years ago that I did not approve of at all and it only seems to be confirmed to me more and more by what they continue to say about it (turning King's Quest into something resembling Twilight and other teen drama sewage instead of the light fairy tale atmosphere with emotional drama thrown in a la KQ6 we love). We'll find out after all the episodes are released, though. I'm not hopeful, but I'll play them and find out for myself. Just as everyone else will. That combined with the typical bad fan-fiction writing makes me think this is going to be one big disappointment for the KQ community. All the TSL fanboys and fangirls who've been on the forums forever are going to defend it no matter what POS does to mutilate it (if they truly do) and the rest will give their honest critique opinions and be shot down for it by fans and developers alike.

Personally, I think this project is going to split the KQ community right down the middle. It's not entirely a bad thing, though. At least there's something big to cause conflict in the community allowing more things to talk about. It's been pretty stagnant since the whole MOE incident .

[Collector]

Sinister, on the Infamous Adventures forum, actually had a brilliant solution. Implement multiple interactions so that if you want to get more narration just keep clicking until you're done reading/listening to all the information.

That sounds like the best possible solution, even Sierra like, so long as they still don't use long winded dialog for things of no consequence. If a rock is just a rock...

At this point it would be unfair to try to judge the story with what is only an intro. However, I'm not sure I like idea of seeking a "unified field theory" for the KQ games. I liked the AGDI treatment of KQ2, but could have done without the "Father" nonsense. KQ6 certainly had its dark themes, but it still had plenty of lighthearted moments. I guess we will see if the game remains consistently dark.

As for the fanboy aspect to the message boards, this is certainly not completely unexpected. It is a common phenomena on project boards. It ends up being counter productive. I have not read the AGS boards in years, but many times in the past when someone offered constructive criticism or had a reasonable request, the Chris Jones fanboys would jump down the poster's throat. For TSL, this is even more disturbing. The fan base for KQ is far wider than POS. Doing a KQ game comes with a certain obligation to this wider group. You really can't stray to far from the real thing before you end up alienating a large part of the target group. Sort of like the J.J. Abrams treatment of Star Trek. Throwout the Science, dump the concepts and replace it with one long action sequence and you'll get some kids ooing and aahing, but you loose the wider fan base. You might as well just do something new.

[QuestCollector]

I completely agree about the narration in the game. I hadn't even walked down the stairs off the second floor before I was tired of the long narration. Sierra did such a good job with one line descriptions that it kept the game flowing. I felt relieved today when I started GK3 and the descriptions were short and to the point, although not to short, some even made me laugh. I never laughed while playing TSL. Even in the darkest King's Quest moments there was always something cheery or lighthearted. I guess would be the best description for it. For example like the Land of the Dead with the "Dem Bones" scene or the dark forest in KQ5 with the rock and the elf.

I know I have seen many critiques over the music in the game but to me it just didn't sound like King's Quest to me. Walking through the castle it did a little but once I walked outside, not so much. It's difficult to explain but to me King's Quest always seemed to keep music more "lighthearted" than completely dark like what you would hear while dungeon crawling through a game like Baldur's Gate or even Diablo.

I don't really want to talk about the story to much right now but what I will say about it is that I don't like the direction it's heading in right now. Maybe in episode 2 when we get to the isle of wonder (can you imagine the narration there!) it will get that feel back. Just have to wait and see.

What I do like about the game though is the graphics and voice acting. The Isle of the Crown looked great from what I saw and the character detail is above average to me. The voice acting was very well done to, although I do miss King Graham not being voiced by Josh Mandel. I wish they would have got him to do it like he did for AGDInteractive.

[Collector]

Anyone else have an opinion? I don't want this to be just a "bash TSL" thread. What did you like about it? Anything that you thought could have been better that hasn't been mentioned?

[Jules]

I've only played a few minutes after the intro video. Almost instantly I noticed the drawn out narration. It's nice hearing about the background of objects in the castle but is it really necessary to have two or three panels of text for a bench or a vase?

The opening spash screen with the black cape was excellent. I almost got goosebumps from it. The music was great too. Datadog and MusicallyInspired, did you help out with the 3D and music?

Graham's walking animation, like Collector mentioned, needs tweaking. The same running animation is used for all the characters. At least change it up a bit so they have their own unique stride.

The overall graphics were OK. Some parts were outstanding while others such as the character models seemed like they lacked professionalism. But then for a totally unpaid, fan-made game, it definitely shines over some fan-made games. Am I the only one that notice Cassima's head was uncomparably larger than everyone else's?

I haven't kept up with anything on the TSL or the AG forums so I can only judge from what I'm hearing here. MI, I trust your opinion and there is a large chance the head in command feels that once they have complete control over something, all side opinions are blown away. I can see Cesar doing that. He tried to help out with our Coffeebreak game years ago on Ken's site, sierragamers.com, and instantly he became lead. Maybe he's just that kind of person who needs complete control. But I do agree that if they continue to shun ideas from the peanut gallery, they will be losing fans. It's called customer service. At least pretend to be open minded to others' opinions.

On a side note, I really liked Jon Stoll's artwork in the sketches of Graham and Valanice. He has some really good stuff!

[Datadog]

Datadog...did you help out with the 3D?

I'm credited as a lead animator, and I did a lot (I mean, A LOT) of work on the pre-rendered cinematics. Unfortunately, I can't take credit for that nice cloth simulation. That was all Rich. However, I can proudly and honestly say: I did not animate the walk cycle.

But I do agree that if they continue to shun ideas from the peanut gallery, they will be losing fans. It's called customer service. At least pretend to be open minded to others' opinions.

They're not actually shunning ideas. Quite the opposite, really. At the moment, I'm trying my best not to divulge any major opinions about the game or break confidentiality (for personal reasons,) but during my time with the team, I've seen them react to every fan outburst, plea, and suggestion, and try to work it into the final product somehow. They are listening to the fans, and TSL is the result of that. If people don't like it, well... that's what fan-service does, unfortunately. Just go through the reviews and forums; some fans are crying tears of happiness, others are boiling with rage. Everyone experiences nostalgia differently.

I can speak of my own personal experience with fan-service in my own fan-fiction, and personally I've found that it can really ruin a story. Reason being: no two fans have the same vision, and thus you can't satisfy both. You're sacrificing your creativity for a shot at acceptance. After the new Star Wars trilogy came out, I remember the arguments that broke out on one forum where all the fans could agree that George Lucas sucks, but most of them couldn't agree on what he should have done differently. They were basically at each other's throats. So ideally, I think the best way to make a fan-game to anything is to actually ignore the fans and take a page from the original creators: just go forward with a sequel and put the old work behind you. Roberta Williams, Al Lowe, the Two Guys - they loved to explore new ideas in their series, and it hard to deny that their best games played out nothing like the games before them. Fans didn't always like it, but when it worked, it rocked.

That's just my two bits regarding fan-games in general. If you want some minor critique on TSL Episode 1, it's too short, there's only one puzzle, some narrations are long-winded, the title doesn't make sense, and I want to punch Edgar in the face. That's right, Cez. You heard me. I know you're reading this.

[Collector]

If you want some minor critique on TSL Episode 1, it's too short, there's only one puzzle, some narrations are long-winded, the title doesn't make sense, and I want to punch Edgar in the face. That's right, Cez. You heard me. I know you're reading this.

He probably doesn't even know this board exists. What bugs you about Edgar?

[MusicallyInspired]

I had nothing to do with TSL.

[Jules]

Datadog...did you help out with the 3D?

I'm credited as a lead animator, and I did a lot (I mean, A LOT) of work on the pre-rendered cinematics. Unfortunately, I can't take credit for that nice cloth simulation. That was all Rich. However, I can proudly and honestly say: I did not animate the walk cycle.

The cinematics was another thing I wanted to mention. One part in particular stood out that I really liked: when the camera followed Valanice running up the stairs. Nothing to complain about there.

It sounds like there's a sense of bitterness toward Cesar's lead. Whatever his role reflected on the team and the fans, you're right DD, there's always going to be split feelings on every decision. Beta testing Gray Matter has shown us that. And perhaps this was a case where Cesar had received too many opinions and was forced to choose one regardless if it didn't agree with the rest of the team/fans. Whether it was majority rule or whatever his best interest was or not.

[Collector]

I noticed another thing on their boards. They are getting a lot of people reporting technical problems with the games and they just moved those threads, mostly unsolved, into a folder labeled "Resolved Issues". Most of these issues probably have more to do with the engine than the game itself. I guess one disadvantage of using someone else's engine, you are going to be less able to fix some of those issues. Still, dumping all of the old help requests, both solved and unsolved into a folder named "Resolved Issues" doesn't promote confidence in the group.

[AndreaDraco]

This really infuriated me. This is the last post to the thread where I posted my issue:

Closing this thread and moving it to Resolved Issues with the [NOT-FIXED] tag. It's been a couple of days now with no updates on the status.

Sorry, what? It's been a couple of days, no one was able to help me, and... you close the darn thread?

I was speechless.

[Datadog]

One part in particular stood out that I really liked: when the camera followed Valanice running up the stairs. Nothing to complain about there.

That shot impressed me too when I saw what Rich did with it in post. Originally, Valanice was rigged so that the dress moved with her legs, so for a few years, it was always going through the steps. After I fired off all the shots to him, Rich applied all kinds of neat cloth simulations to the characters, improving the shots tenfold. That's definitely a skill I need to learn.

I guess one disadvantage of using someone else's engine, you are going to be less able to fix some of those issues.

Personally, I was never a fan of the Torque engine. It was mostly designed for FPS games, and even those don't work very well on it. The last company I worked for used it for one of their key projects, and even our team of professional programmers thought it was glitchy as heck.

[DeadPoolX]

Personally, I was never a fan of the Torque engine. It was mostly designed for FPS games, and even those don't work very well on it. The last company I worked for used it for one of their key projects, and even our team of professional programmers thought it was glitchy as heck.

Ah yes... the Torque engine. I remember the Starsiege community was in the process of making a fan-made sequel (granted permission by Vivendi), but the entire project fell through. There were a lot of problems, most of which included difficultly coordinating their efforts.

The best we got was an ATR. It looked great and played pretty well, but that didn't save it. Maybe someone else will pick up where they left off, although I doubt it. Ever since the SS servers were shut down, the community (as a whole) lost touch with one another.

The above is why I'm hesitant to be too critical of TSL. The graphics and animation (in my opinion) suck when compared to commercial releases, but TSL is a private fan-made endeavor. I'm willing to give a lot of slack, considering how difficult it is to make a functional game.

The cutscenes may be too long, but professionally-made games have had this problem too. One notable offender is Metal Gear Solid 4. The MGS series has always been heavy on cutscenes, but MGS4 took it way too far.

Anyway... I'll withhold judgment until the next chapter is released. Hopefully "Chapter 2" will be more interactive.

[MusicallyInspired]

I don't have any complaints about the graphics or the engine. It looks like crap on my PC (you can see the wireframes on every polygonal image in the game besides the characters), but it's free so I don't care. I have an ATI X1650 AGP. Maybe that's why. The demo never looked like this, though. But whatever. I can get past it. I get silky smooth framerates even in the throne room at full quality.