Geeks vs Nerds: Superman vs. Goku

[Datadog]

This is a topic that has appeared in way too many forums for too many years, but now I'm actually posting it for a legitimate reason. On the 13th, I'm participating in a live "Geeks vs. Nerds" debate on stage and I've been placed on Team Superman. So for 40 minutes, I will have to present facts that defend Superman against the might of an over-powered Super Saiyan. Something about this got me thinking about all the DC fans on this forum, and I thought I'd get some input here.

I'm not sure how many people here are familiar with Goku from "Dragonball Z", but the more research I do, the more it looks like he's a shoe-in for a straight-up fight. So I call on any DC fans to step in and give me some goods on Superman. I haven't read too many of his comics, so I'm hoping some fans might give me some creative ideas on how Superman could win this battle.

(And yes, we're aiming for Silver Age Superman here. Our team already agreed we aren't going to cheat by having Superman erase Goku's memories with a kiss.)

[Tawmis]

I am not sure how Goku would win. (Granted my access to Goku is limited by the people around me who love Dragonball Z). Superman has, essentially, one weakness in a straight up fight. Krytonite. He can breathe in space. His body doesn't collapse under incredible pressure. He's taking hits from those who are equal to him in strength. He did "die" once. (But then who hasn't in comics?) So I could see Goku going super sian or whatever that is - and blasting the hades out of Superman, and Superman just standing there, fixing his hair, saying, "Is that all you've got?" I mean he's completely immune to energy, temperature, etc.

Superman, has an assortment of powers - aside from just flight - but his strength (which is beyond incredible even in the comic world, considering some of his feats), his heat ray vision, his freezing breath...

Superman's invulnerability is one of the main reasons I hated Superman for 20+ years of collecting comics.

(Of course, the New 52 has made me a believer). But DPX could probably speak more clearly on Superman's behalf since he enjoyed the older DC before The New 52 launched.

[DeadPoolX]

Superman isn't nearly as invulnerable as a lot of people think he is. Sure, his main -- and most well known -- weakness is Kryptonite, but he has others.

Magic, for instance, can easily hurt him. He has no natural defenses against it. This is why Wonder Woman's sword (forged by Hephaestus) can cut through his skin.

Superman also has to breathe and take in oxygen. Although it'd be practically impossible to hold him down long enough, if someone could, he could drown, even on Earth. He also has to hold his breath in outer space, which is why he often used a breathing mask.

Red sun radiation (that is, solar radiation coming from a red star equal to that of the Kryptonian sun) will drain and eventually remove his powers for as long as he's exposed to it. He'll regain his powers under a yellow sun, but it takes time for him to "recharge."

The Post-Crisis Superman I read about was protected by a bio-electric aura generated by the Earth's yellow sun. If he fought someone tough and strong enough, for a long period of time, it's possible to wear down that aura and eventually become vulnerable to more conventional means of injury.

In fact, all of his powers were fueled by yellow solar radiation. So anytime he uses his abilities, like heat vision, he used some stored energy. That's why he'd sometimes fly out into space and get close to the sun. He'd need to soak up more yellow solar radiation and the best way to do that was without Earth's atmosphere getting in the way.

Finally, some creatures were just powerful enough to hurt him, despite his natural defenses. Kryptonians and Daxamites, for instance, could hurt him if they were also exposed to a yellow sun. Darkseid (and other enemies from Apokolips) could beat the living crap out of Superman, no matter where he was. Doomsday, a failed Kryptonian experiment to create a living weapon, actually killed Superman.

It'd also be possible for beings with certain powers, like those belonging to Green Lanterns (particularly Alan Scott, since his GL ring's source is mystical, not Oan like the Green Lantern Corps) to hurt Superman.

So all in all, Superman is just about invulnerable so long as he avoids certain enemies and situations. From what little I've read of the newly rebooted Superman, that version is even less powerful, requiring his costume/armor to make him tougher.

Now all bets are off if we're talking about the Silver Age Superman. That version could juggle planets and probably shrug off a blast from the Death Star (although magic could still hurt him and red sun radiation drain his powers). Needless to say, the Silver Age made Superman obscenely powerful, to the point where none of the other characters were really necessary.

[Datadog]

Oops. Silver Age definitely wasn't what I meant. Glad I checked in here first. Almost made that mistake on-stage.

*checks the wiki*

Okay - Modern Age Superman. Like DPX said, the one who can't breathe in space, and is vulnerable to magic, electricity, energy blasts, and extremely severe beatings.

Our problem with Goku is that he's a character who's a martial arts master, always trains himself to surpass his opponents, and grows stronger with every battle. Put him against Superman and he will surpass Superman at some point. As of where with Superman, we're dealing with a guy whose strength is pre-defined. So he often has to rely on his wits to defeat his stronger opponents. As far as we can figure, Superman's best bets involve baiting Goku with food, trapping him in the Phantom Zone, or calling Batman for help.

If we were dealing with Silver Age Superman, then yeah - this fight would be over in a heartbeat. Superman could use his anti-Goku vision because it would be the 60's and anything goes in comics.

[Tawmis]

Our problem with Goku is that he's a character who's a martial arts master, always trains himself to surpass his opponents, and grows stronger with every battle. Put him against Superman and he will surpass Superman at some point. As of where with Superman, we're dealing with a guy whose strength is pre-defined. So he often has to rely on his wits to defeat his stronger opponents. As far as we can figure, Superman's best bets involve baiting Goku with food, trapping him in the Phantom Zone, or calling Batman for help.

Well if Goku trains himself to surpass his opponents - it'd go both ways, I'd think. But if we're talking a one on one fight - for the first time in the "ring" as it were. Goku would have no chance to train to surpass Superman. So it depends on the circumstances of the battle.

[DeadPoolX]

Unless Goku's powers are mgaic-based or he's an alien himself, he'll have a difficult time defeating Superman.

It's not impossible, of course, as Batman has beaten Superman before, but usually with the help of Kryptonite and specially-designed armor to help him survive. Plus, I somehow doubt Superman has ever tried his hardest to beat Batman, because if he did, Bats would never even see him coming.

Superman's greatest weakness, however, is his morality. If Superman were a stone cold killer and cut loose, he could swoop in at super-sonic (or even sub-light) speed and kill most opponents in seconds. His strength alone could rip my enemies apart. His other powers, like heat vision, could be used to lobotomize enemies as well.

Even the modern Superman, who has far more weaknesses than his Silver Age counterpart, is practically unstoppable while powered by a yellow sun. This is why writers are constantly putting Superman in scenarios where he comes across magic, Kryptonite, equally powerful aliens or placing him in situations where his set of morals stops him from really utilizing his powers.

[Maxor127]

Unless Goku's powers are mgaic-based or he's an alien himself, he'll have a difficult time defeating Superman.

Goku is an alien.

I thought this would be a clear win for Superman, but I guess he has a lot more weaknesses than I knew about. So I guess I'll give the win to Goku because all he'd have to do is destroy the Sun (which would probably be easy for him) and then Superman wouldn't have any powers.

[Tawmis]

Unless Goku's powers are mgaic-based or he's an alien himself, he'll have a difficult time defeating Superman.

Goku is an alien.

I thought this would be a clear win for Superman, but I guess he has a lot more weaknesses than I knew about. So I guess I'll give the win to Goku because all he'd have to do is destroy the Sun (which would probably be easy for him) and then Superman wouldn't have any powers.

I don't think that he'd have NO powers. I believe the yellow sun ENHANCES his powers.

But would Goku destroy the sun knowing that the people of Earth would perish too?

As DPX said, the thing that holds Superman back is his morals.

[DeadPoolX]

Unless Goku's powers are mgaic-based or he's an alien himself, he'll have a difficult time defeating Superman.

Goku is an alien.

I thought this would be a clear win for Superman, but I guess he has a lot more weaknesses than I knew about. So I guess I'll give the win to Goku because all he'd have to do is destroy the Sun (which would probably be easy for him) and then Superman wouldn't have any powers.

I don't think that he'd have NO powers. I believe the yellow sun ENHANCES his powers.

But would Goku destroy the sun knowing that the people of Earth would perish too?

As DPX said, the thing that holds Superman back is his morals.

Superman is fully powered by the yellow sun. Without a yellow sun, he won't immediately lose his powers, but he won't be able to store up solar radiation, so he'll eventually become weaker and at some point, no more powerful than an ordinary human being.

[Maxor127]

Unless Goku's powers are mgaic-based or he's an alien himself, he'll have a difficult time defeating Superman.

Goku is an alien.

I thought this would be a clear win for Superman, but I guess he has a lot more weaknesses than I knew about. So I guess I'll give the win to Goku because all he'd have to do is destroy the Sun (which would probably be easy for him) and then Superman wouldn't have any powers.

I don't think that he'd have NO powers. I believe the yellow sun ENHANCES his powers.

But would Goku destroy the sun knowing that the people of Earth would perish too?

As DPX said, the thing that holds Superman back is his morals.

If we're including morals into the equation, then probably not. Goku is probably at least Superman's moral equal. But just based on observable powers, I think Goku would win considering he can literally destroy whole planets with ease, he can move faster than the eye can see to the point that it looks like he's teleporting, plus he can actually teleport I'm assuming a limitless distance. I can't think of any weaknesses he has other than what the plot demands, which is pretty much, he'll be a powerful fighter, then an enemy threat will arrive that will be more powerful, then he'll lose, and he'll disappear for 10 episodes and either train and/or get resurrected so that he comes back even more powerful, and even then it's still not enough, but then at a critical moment he'll suddenly find tremendous power deep inside him and he'll defeat the enemy and be the most powerful thing in the galaxy until the writers come up with a new, more powerful threat. Plus, Saiyans (Goku's alien race) become more powerful after each defeat.

And I don't know what kind of training Superman does, but Goku is a born fighter who pretty much trains as a living. It seems to me like Superman just relies on his abilities to overpower enemies. I don't think he'd ever breakout martial arts or anything.

So after talking this out, I think I'm going to go with Goku. I would've said Superman if kryptonite was his only weakness, but apparently that's not the case. Goku is pretty much a 7 year old's version of a superhero. He's pretty much indestructible. The bad guy can't ever say he wins because Goku will find a way to come back and become even stronger. Goku could grab Superman, warp them to some other dimension with a red sun that renders his powers useless, and then destroy him.

[DeadPoolX]

Superman would have a real fighting chance if he was trained at all by Batman and/or Wonder Woman. I doubt he has been, however.

[Datadog]

Hmmm... I'm reading into this, and it seems Superman trains himself in two forms of Kryptonian martial arts, and was trained in hand-to-hand by Batman himself (comic writers have thought of everything!)

He also seems to have a "sun-dipped" advantage, where by flying through the sun, he can temporarily increase his powers exponentially.

So: Sun-dipped Superman + Batman's mentoring = Trouble for Goku.

I don't think Goku would ever break out the kryptonite or use the red sun to weaken Superman. Goku has a code of honor (or stupidity) where he'll always permit his opponent to be at their strongest; even after they've destroyed entire planets and murdered his friends.

[DeadPoolX]

Wait, so Batman did train him? I didn't know that. It seems uncharacteristic of Batman do that, given Superman's already considerable advantage on him.

Wonder Woman, I could understand training Supes, but Batman doing it seems like he's asking for trouble down the line when Superman inevitably gets mind-controlled or something.

[Datadog]

It could also be to Batman's advantage. By sparring with Superman, he can get a feel for combat with him. So even though Superman is learning some things, Batman could always be holding back the few tricks he might need to use on Superman someday.

[Maxor127]

I've been browsing around the internet. It seems the consensus is Goku wins. Everyone seems to say the same things we've said here. My personal unbiased opinion is that Goku would mop the floor with Superman. For it to be fair, I think it would have to be either pre-Dragonball Z Goku or pre-Super-Saiyan Goku. And if you classify "ki" as magic, then Superman is in even more trouble. Goku is like a superhero cheat code.