King's Quest II - Daventry - it's not.

[Tawmis]

So Josh just replayed KQ2AGI (oddly, the same time I did). And so we got into a discussion on Twitter.

So all these years since KQ2 came out - I always thought that it took place in Daventry, and that once you unlock the third door and go into the world that has the purple skies and oceans, where Valanice is trapped in the tower - is Kolyma. But Josh said that the entire thing is in Kolyma - well, except the ending, where we see the Daventry castle.

So all these years, I had it wrong. I thought just the world beyond the doors was Kolyma... so does that mean that the doors lead to a world/dimension that is not even Daventry or Kolyma? Because of the purple skies and ocean would indicate it's a very different world/dimension...

[Collector]

Josh is right. From the intro:

Sir Graham is now King of Daventry. Under his wise rule, Daventry is prosperous. He is loved by his people. Unfortunately, there is a problem. King Graham needs a queen for companionship and to provide an heir to the throne. He has searched high and low for the right maiden, but he remains alone. An idea comes to him! He goes to the magic mirror and looks into its depths. He sees a vision of a quartz tower. To reach it he must pass through a magic door in the nearby land of Kolyma. The scene then changes to show a beautiful girl locked within the tower! Graham now knows what to do. Bravely, he sets off to find the land of Kolyma and the beautiful maiden.

[Tawmis]

Josh is right. From the intro:

Sir Graham is now King of Daventry. Under his wise rule, Daventry is prosperous. He is loved by his people. Unfortunately, there is a problem. King Graham needs a queen for companionship and to provide an heir to the throne. He has searched high and low for the right maiden, but he remains alone. An idea comes to him! He goes to the magic mirror and looks into its depths. He sees a vision of a quartz tower. To reach it he must pass through a magic door in the nearby land of Kolyma. The scene then changes to show a beautiful girl locked within the tower! Graham now knows what to do. Bravely, he sets off to find the land of Kolyma and the beautiful maiden.

Yeah, after he said it - I figured he was right! I guess I always thought the funky world BEYOND the door was Kolyma all these years.

Was pretty fun - the fact that he was live tweeting his playing, and I had just finished. He corrected me about the Kolyma thing when I replied to him. (He had said "only in Kolyma is there no need to breathe underwater - only if you're riding a sea horse") - and that when I had said, that Graham was in Daventry and he corrected me. I later was able to point out, with the woman in the shop with the lamp about trading in the nightingale - he had said there was no indication, and I had said, if you type "buy lamp" she explains it's expensive, but willing to trade it if you get her nightingale from the witch who stole it from her.

[Tawmis]

We also suspect (mutually, pretty funny!) that Little Red Riding Hood's Grandmother may have been sleeping with Dracula a long time ago (because his cloak and ring are under her bed; probably kicked there, when Little Red Riding Hood came home unexpectedly; forcing Dracula to leave out the window, and leaving his clothing behind, which Graham later gets!)

I can almost see a tragic fan fiction brewing in my head - Dracula was a normal man, a prince perhaps (in his castle on the island) - having an affair with the true woman he loved, Red Riding Hood's Grandmother (though this was many, many, many years ago!) Having to make a hasty exit when Red Riding Hood comes home early (thus leaving behind his cloak and ring!) he sneaks back to his castle - gets caught by his less than loving gypsy wife, who curses him to forever roam the darkness of night, as she had caught him - craving love, but only able to feed off of it!

[Collector]

We also suspect (mutually, pretty funny!) that Little Red Riding Hood's Grandmother may have been sleeping with Dracula a long time ago (because his cloak and ring are under her bed; probably kicked there, when Little Red Riding Hood came home unexpectedly; forcing Dracula to leave out the window, and leaving his clothing behind, which Graham later gets!)

I can almost see a tragic fan fiction brewing in my head - Dracula was a normal man, a prince perhaps (in his castle on the island) - having an affair with the true woman he loved, Red Riding Hood's Grandmother (though this was many, many, many years ago!) Having to make a hasty exit when Red Riding Hood comes home early (thus leaving behind his cloak and ring!) he sneaks back to his castle - gets caught by his less than loving gypsy wife, who curses him to forever roam the darkness of night, as she had caught him - craving love, but only able to feed off of it!

Of course that is exactly one of the places that the writer of AGDI's KQ2VGA went with his "enhancements". Can't say I liked all of his enhancements, but I still enjoyed the remake. I don't think that KQ3 needed any enhancements, but I guess they wanted to make it more consistent with how they changed canon in KQ2. At least we have IA's KQ3VGA for those that thinks this matters.

[Rath Darkblade]

Hmm... I've never played KQ2, but now the mental image of Dracula leaving through the window sans clothes has me intrigued - and, obviously, in dire need of brain bleach!

I have far too much imagination.

[Tawmis]

Of course that is exactly one of the places that the writer of AGDI's KQ2VGA went with his "enhancements". Can't say I liked all of his enhancements, but I still enjoyed the remake. I don't think that KQ3 needed any enhancements, but I guess they wanted to make it more consistent with how they changed canon in KQ2. At least we have IA's KQ3VGA for those that thinks this matters.

Gah! Never played the KQ2VGA! Interesting that they went with the same idea! How did they tie that in?

Hmm... I've never played KQ2, but now the mental image of Dracula leaving through the window sans clothes has me intrigued - and, obviously, in dire need of brain bleach!
I have far too much imagination.

Kind of a brutal game; some of the puzzles are pretty ridiculous (but not as bad as KQ1 AGI).

[Tawmis]

Rath's recent thread about Graham made me think of something that I forgot to bring up when I was playing King's Quest II. Why is it that Graham is yellow in King's Quest II, and yet Valanice is "flesh toned."

Curious if Graham was always intended to be "flesh toned" (as we see him later) - why they didn't go with making him "flesh" toned in King's Quest II.

[Collector]

It is not "flesh toned" unless you happen to be John Boehner . It's essentially a limitation of the 16 color palette.The color is actually bright red. So the choice was yellow or bright red. By the time of SCI0, while still stuck with EGA's 16 colors, the graphics used dithering that could alternate between yellow and bright red for something closer to flesh color.

[adeyke]

In the AGI KQ games, characters had a variety of skin colors. Most were either yellow or light red. Since Graham is already wearing a light red shirt, he's yellow. In the SCI games, they changed him to light red with a dark red shirt. With the higher resolution, this looks okay. And that light red also became the standard for their other games; it was mainly the early KQs where they were still experimenting with yellow.

It is not "flesh toned" unless you happen to be John Boehner . It's essentially a limitation of the 16 color palette.The color is actually bright red. So the choice was yellow or bright red. By the time of SCI0, while still stuck with EGA's 16 colors, the graphics used dithering that could alternate between yellow and bright red for something closer to flesh color.

They never used dithering in that way. Conquests of Camelot did have light red and white dithered for some cut scenes, but dithering would have looked really bad for sprites.

[Tawmis]

It is not "flesh toned" unless you happen to be John Boehner . It's essentially a limitation of the 16 color palette.The color is actually bright red. So the choice was yellow or bright red. By the time of SCI0, while still stuck with EGA's 16 colors, the graphics used dithering that could alternate between yellow and bright red for something closer to flesh color.

In the AGI KQ games, characters had a variety of skin colors. Most were either yellow or light red. Since Graham is already wearing a light red shirt, he's yellow. In the SCI games, they changed him to light red with a dark red shirt. With the higher resolution, this looks okay. And that light red also became the standard for their other games; it was mainly the early KQs where they were still experimenting with yellow.

Well, I was thinking, even if they put one square between shirt and head (like on his neck) that was a different color - it could have worked. Because if you look at LSL1, PQ1, SQ1, they all had "flesh toned" colors. But as you said, the red shirt would have made it a little more difficult. But by the same token, anytime Graham walked along the beach (which there are several scenes in KQ2), his arms and head "disappeared"

[adeyke]

In the since KQ1, it's become pretty much a standard that white people in EGA games are be depicted as having light red skin, but I think the only reason you see this as normal is that you're so used to seeing it. If you saw the same color in a different context, you really wouldn't label it "flesh toned". KQ5, for example, had a similar color for its character (outside of cutscenes), despite being VGA, and I've always found that look to be odd.

[Tawmis]

In the since KQ1, it's become pretty much a standard that white people in EGA games are be depicted as having light red skin, but I think the only reason you see this as normal is that you're so used to seeing it. If you saw the same color in a different context, you really wouldn't label it "flesh toned". KQ5, for example, had a similar color for its character (outside of cutscenes), despite being VGA, and I've always found that look to be odd.

Well that's why I use "flesh toned" in quotes every time I reference it. Because, let's face it - flesh tone can be virtually any color (Asians, African, White, etc).

[adeyke]

You're right, and it's good to acknowledge that. However, just to be clear, this was the original question:

Rath's recent thread about Graham made me think of something that I forgot to bring up when I was playing King's Quest II. Why is it that Graham is yellow in King's Quest II, and yet Valanice is "flesh toned."

Curious if Graham was always intended to be "flesh toned" (as we see him later) - why they didn't go with making him "flesh" toned in King's Quest II.

The answer to the question is Graham's light red shirt and the fact that, especially at such a low resolution, it might look like Graham is shirtless if his skin was also light red.

However, what I find interesting is that you were contrasting "yellow" with "flesh toned". That means both that yellow isn't "flesh toned" and that the color of Valanice and such (light red) are "flesh toned". The point I was trying to make was that the skin color of white people (and Graham is one) isn't found in the EGA palette and that yellow isn't necessarily a worse approximation than light red. It's only from familiarity with EGA and its conventions that one would find that light red normal, rather than an approximation.

[Tawmis]

The answer to the question is Graham's light red shirt and the fact that, especially at such a low resolution, it might look like Graham is shirtless if his skin was also light red.
However, what I find interesting is that you were contrasting "yellow" with "flesh toned". That means both that yellow isn't "flesh toned" and that the color of Valanice and such (light red) are "flesh toned". The point I was trying to make was that the skin color of white people (and Graham is one) isn't found in the EGA palette and that yellow isn't necessarily a worse approximation than light red. It's only from familiarity with EGA and its conventions that one would find that light red normal, rather than an approximation.

When I see Graham in King's Quest 1 and 2 (AGI), I can't help but see him more of a LEGO than "flesh toned" (with the blocked head and all). So when Valanice shows up "light red" she looked more ... "realistic."

So I guess, in King's Quest 1 - it's not a big issue. I think everyone you run into is "yellow toned"?

But even then - couldn't they have swapped his red shirt (especially in KQ2) with a more purple color (since Purple is frequently associated to royalty) - sort of like what they did the the fairy in KQ2?


That way he could have had a "light red" colored face - so when he meets up with Valanice in the tower, there isn't a contradiction between the two?

(Not that interracial marriages bother me especially since I am Spanish and my wife is Vietnamese!) It's just later KQ games (KQ3 and going forward) we see him "light red" to "white people" skin tone!