Star Wars / Star Trek Discussion (SciFi In General)

[MusicallyInspired]

Actually, TLJ wasn't even written when Mark signed on. In fact, he related how he was talking with Colin Trevorrow, the original director for Ep9 who has since been let go from the project due to "creative differences", about ideas for his character and they were both really excited about it. Then Rian came along and....wrote what he did, and Mark was taken aback. I'm convinced this is part of the reason why Colin was let go. He didn't like it either. Both he and Mark have made passive aggressive jabs together and apart on Twitter about the direction TLJ took. So I'm not sure if he even could have walked away from his contract at that point or not or what the deal was. Either way, things went far differently than he had hoped or expected (and, in some cases, planned with both Trevorrow and Abrams). He pleaded with Rian not to make the changes but he didn't listen.

Actually, Mark was surprised when he wasn't even present in Ep7 at all except for the ending and never had a single line. I just think Mark was as excited as anybody to revisit Star Wars because deep down he's just a nerd and a fan like the rest of us. It's just all a shame...I feel bad for him. He's in such a tight spot. He can't really speak too negatively of it because he's probably being paid not to. He's a part of the project and it would just destroy the PR for everything if he said the wrong words (and you can tell in some of those panels and joint interviews that he almost did and Rian and/or Kathleen Kennedy kind of stepped in and interrupted him to reassure fans about things), and he's not a negative guy anyway regardless so I think he's massively conflicted within himself. One thing's for sure, he didn't get what he expected and he's just such a nice guy that he was probably a bit of a pushover about it by not pulling out or turning it down. But despite that, I think he made the best choice he could given the situation he found himself in. I think there would be a lot more people who would have scoffed at him without any background information if he had turned it down and not agreed to return. This way, no fans hate him. And he was the best part of the movie, hands down.

[DeadPoolX]

It is interesting that those (and this doesn't include MI, who is actually a reasonable person!) were so against The Last Jedi, did it so venomously, that it was difficult to see their point - because, as you said, they couldn't explain it without being utterly offensive.

The impression I got is that the vocal minority actually took personal offense to TLJ.

I seem to recall some fans raising a real fuss over Luke referring to lightsabers as "laser swords." They claimed that he "disrespected the franchise and its fanbase" or some such nonsense.

Somehow they couldn't understand that the FICTIONAL CHARACTER was making a derogatory comment about the Jedi's famous weapon to another character, not fans. Luke's whole schtick on that island, from making a spectacle of himself by drinking blue alien milk to mocking the Jedi, was him trying to tell Rey to "screw off" without actually being rude or violent.

Many have claimed there's an "anti-white male" theme in the new movies, especially TLJ. I think the situation that got many of these "fans" upset were the scenes between Holdo and Poe. I guess not many of these people understand how the military works: you follow your commanding officer's orders.

What you shouldn't do is lie about your rank (and recent demotion due to disobeying orders), attempt to TELL your CO how she should run everything, and then throw a temper-tantrum when things don't go your way and stage a mutiny!

I really shouldn't be surprised, though. This reaction from "fans" isn't about logic and military procedure, it's about a perceived power struggle between men and women.

Going beyond the movies themselves, I think a lot of this anger stems from this mistaken belief that the "fans own Star Wars." No, they don't. You may like it, but you don't get a say in how the story goes, and I think that lack of agency is what infuriates these people.

Amazingly enough, they spent TWO YEARS coming up with batshit insane theories online (the majority of which were either stupid or so cliched it's laughable) and creating a whole movie plot in their minds that when TLJ deviated from what they felt was the "correct storyline" to follow they felt cheated and lashed out.

Also, many of these people were die-hard Expanded Universe fans (books, comics, video gamers etc) and came to see what was essentially glorified fan fiction as canonical. When Disney said that the Expanded Universe was being entirely disregarded, many of these people who spent decades absorbing that media were enraged.

I read many of the Expanded Universe books (apparently it's been rebranded as "Legends"), going back to the first Timothy Zahn novel released in 1991. Some weren't too bad, but most were mediocre-to-awful. I stopped reading them a long time ago and maybe because of that, I simply didn't give a damn when Disney tossed out the Expanded Universe. Apparently many people didn't feel the same way.

All of this said... it wouldn't be the first time a toxic contingent of self-proclaimed Star Wars fans have acted like asshats. In response to the prequels, some of these individuals seriously stated that "George Lucas owed them an apology."

You need one hell of an ego to make that statement with a straight face. I mean, I really, really disliked the prequels, but Lucas didn't (and still doesn't) owe me shit. Neither does Disney. This isn't life and death, it's entertainment. No one says you need to like it, but you don't get to decide what the creator of said product can do with their own intellectual property.

[MusicallyInspired]

For every member of the vocal minority who raises ridiculous points like Luke saying "laser sword" and attacks Kelly Marie Tran for being annoying and ethnic, there are many more sensible people who dislike the movie and its portrayal of Luke and Rose's character for actual legitimate reasons. What gets me is when these lines get blurred together and every gets lumped into "whiny awful fans." It's not fair to the sensible majority of people who have a negative opinion of The Last Jedi.

[Tawmis]

For every member of the vocal minority who raises ridiculous points like Luke saying "laser sword" and attacks Kelly Marie Tran for being annoying and ethnic, there are many more sensible people who dislike the movie and its portrayal of Luke and Rose's character for actual legitimate reasons. What gets me is when these lines get blurred together and every gets lumped into "whiny awful fans." It's not fair to the sensible majority of people who have a negative opinion of The Last Jedi.

Sir, rest assured, from the numerous engagements I've had on Twitter with my Comic Relief Podcast account, you are in a the minority in how you at least speak respectfully, while disagreeing. Maybe Twitter is a bad "sampling" - but I have ended up blocking more people over The Last Jedi then I have for "I'm lonely tonight, are you?" DMs from beautiful, yet scantly clad ladies, that I get.

Many have claimed there's an "anti-white male" theme in the new movies, especially TLJ.

Which is hilarious. It's an entire Galaxy, folks. There's going to be plenty of "colored" people - and aliens.

I really shouldn't be surprised, though. This reaction from "fans" isn't about logic and military procedure, it's about a perceived power struggle between men and women.

I'd never heard the term SJW (Social Justice Warrior) until The Last Jedi. And perhaps because of it, I saw it bleed into comments about comics as well - about letting female writers and artists take over as a "part of a woman's movement."

Also, many of these people were die-hard Expanded Universe fans (books, comics, video gamers etc) and came to see what was essentially glorified fan fiction as canonical. When Disney said that the Expanded Universe was being entirely disregarded, many of these people who spent decades absorbing that media were enraged.

I also think - after Return of the Jedi, there was a BUNCH - and I mean A BUNCH of books that came out that were considered "cannon" - until Disney took over and said, "Those books take place in an alternate Universe" (affectionately?) now called the "EU" (Extended Universe).

While I read the books (Lord, not all of them, but a great many of them) - and they were pretty good (well, other than dropping a moon on Chewbecca to kill him, just because writer(s) felt like they couldn't do anything with him dialogue wise, or whatever)... Now, to be told (pre-Disney) that it was cannon, then be told that it's now EU. I can see some of those fans being upset. They grew up MANY YEARS reading these books that continued the Star Wars legacy - and then to have that yanked away. I can see that they're a little pissed.

But I get why Disney did it - they didn't want to make a movie that the books already explored. They wanted their own stories, and as the new owners, entitled to do so.

The kicker is, for some of the people I... "engaged" with on Twitter about the Last Jedi, I often asked, "Are you upset because the books you read are not cannon?" And a great many of these "fanatical fans" had not even read the books.

[DeadPoolX]

For every member of the vocal minority who raises ridiculous points like Luke saying "laser sword" and attacks Kelly Marie Tran for being annoying and ethnic, there are many more sensible people who dislike the movie and its portrayal of Luke and Rose's character for actual legitimate reasons.

And that's fine if they can present their argument in a sensible way. Unfortunately, very few of them can. When someone argues from a standpoint of anger, their argument — even if it's a good one — is tossed aside because they outwardly appear irrational.

I speak from experience. Although I still have a temper (and likely always will), when I was younger I was far more prone to getting angry over... well, pretty much anything that displeased me in the slightest.

From the comments made by the vocal minority, I get the sense that they're in their mid-to-late 20s at most and probably grew up watching the prequels. This probably accounts for the sudden glut of "positive comments about Episodes 1, 2, and 3" where before it was almost a joke or meme about how awful they were.

I've also noticed that, by and large, older fans (as in those who grew up with the original trilogy and are, in fact, chronologically older) really didn't have much of an issue with TLJ. Sure, there were aspects some or even many disliked (including myself), but it wasn't enough to ruin our enjoyment or spur us on to create diatribes on Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

What gets me is when these lines get blurred together and every gets lumped into "whiny awful fans." It's not fair to the sensible majority of people who have a negative opinion of The Last Jedi.

I'd argue against the idea that the majority of fans disliked TLJ (or at least disliked it enough for it to negatively affect their overall enjoyment from the movie).

I enjoyed TLJ, but it wasn't perfect and I have some problems with a few parts, but it wasn't enough to ruin the film for me and certainly not "destroy Star Wars." Then again, I think the people who claim "Michael Bay destroyed my childhood" (in reference to the Transformer films) are nuts as well, and this is coming from someone who LOVED the Transformers as a kid.

Maybe I'm unusually tolerant or simply don't get attached to intellectual properties like many other people do.

Sir, rest assured, from the numerous engagements I've had on Twitter with my Comic Relief Podcast account, you are in a the minority in how you at least speak respectfully, while disagreeing. Maybe Twitter is a bad "sampling" - but I have ended up blocking more people over The Last Jedi then I have for "I'm lonely tonight, are you?" DMs from beautiful, yet scantly clad ladies, that I get.

To be fair, social media in general is a cesspool. Obi-Wan Kenobi could've been describing social media when he said "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

I'd never heard the term SJW (Social Justice Warrior) until The Last Jedi. And perhaps because of it, I saw it bleed into comments about comics as well - about letting female writers and artists take over as a "part of a woman's movement."

I started hearing it a while back regarding the whole GamerGate idiocy.

In all fairness, there are media outlets and companies that are aggressively pushing racial, sexual, or gender-based topics within media where there's really no place for them. Netflix is a big offender of this. Most of the "Netflix Original" shows I've seen have done so with all the subtlety of a nuclear bomb.

I also think - after Return of the Jedi, there was a BUNCH - and I mean A BUNCH of books that came out that were considered "cannon" - until Disney took over and said, "Those books take place in an alternate Universe" (affectionately?) now called the "EU" (Extended Universe).

[...]

They grew up MANY YEARS reading these books that continued the Star Wars legacy - and then to have that yanked away. I can see that they're a little pissed.

Maybe because I used to read comics the idea of multiple universes doesn't bother me, nor does the erasing of one continuity in favor of another. Comics have been doing this for years and I just grew accustomed to it.

Even so, Disney hasn't said that new books and comics can't be made. The Expanded Universe (which is now called "Legends") can still have new additions, it just won't be considered canonical or at least, part of the film-based timeline. I think this was a better compromise than outright destroying the Expanded Universe because it allows fans to continue with that particular timeline.

[MusicallyInspired]

NOTE: I'll warn you ahead of time this post was a LOT longer than I intended it to be. I guess I had the energy tonight, unlike last time. So be warned, GIANT WALL OF TEXT INCOMING.

And that's fine if they can present their argument in a sensible way. Unfortunately, very few of them can. When someone argues from a standpoint of anger, their argument — even if it's a good one — is tossed aside because they outwardly appear irrational.

Which is a shame. I think even a good portion of that vicious vocal minority of detractors probably are just really upset because the progression of these characters doesn't make logical sense to them (this is how I feel), but lash out because they don't know how to explain themselves properly. I've learned that when I can't explain myself I just take a breath and sleep on it or don't bother explaining at all. Not everyone (especially younger people) can resist that knee-jerk reaction to say something, though. I tend to be more compassionate because I can understand where some of them are coming from.

The ones that are straight up evil and spout venom just to hurt as much as possible can go fly a kite, though.

I speak from experience. Although I still have a temper (and likely always will), when I was younger I was far more prone to getting angry over... well, pretty much anything that displeased me in the slightest.

I think everyone's been there at one point in their life or another. Some "evolve" out of it sooner than others.

From the comments made by the vocal minority, I get the sense that they're in their mid-to-late 20s at most and probably grew up watching the prequels. This probably accounts for the sudden glut of "positive comments about Episodes 1, 2, and 3" where before it was almost a joke or meme about how awful they were.

Indeed. The prequel love is staggeringly high these days.

I've also noticed that, by and large, older fans (as in those who grew up with the original trilogy and are, in fact, chronologically older) really didn't have much of an issue with TLJ. Sure, there were aspects some or even many disliked (including myself), but it wasn't enough to ruin our enjoyment or spur us on to create diatribes on Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube.

That is not universal. I know plenty of older fans who can't stand ANY of the new Disney Star Wars movies OR the prequels. It's not a predictable thing. I enjoyed TFA but I knew that it was a bit on the weaker side of a start for the new episodes. I just expected them to get better....they did not. At this point I'm not sure if I'll go see Ep9 or not. At this moment, I'm just wholly uninterested in almost anything Star Wars just because of TLJ. It totally killed my resurgence of excitement I felt when TFA and Rogue One came out. I was starting to buy the Blurays, the soundtracks, I even was into buying lightsaber replicas and custom ones (I even built my own from scratch!). All of that just died very quickly.

I'd argue against the idea that the majority of fans disliked TLJ (or at least disliked it enough for it to negatively affect their overall enjoyment from the movie).

When I say "majority" I don't mean that a majority of people who watched TLJ didn't like it. In fact, I'd say TLJ is split directly down the middle quite evenly between people who loved it and people who thought it was a disaster. What I meant was the majority of the people on the half who have negative feelings about TLJ are fairly reasonable, but they're also a silent majority. Also, people who aren't even fans jump on that bandwagon to crap all over things for completely different reasons. Where all the animosity comes from is the feeling of unfairness they feel when the other side wrongly generalizes all the negative fans as being as toxic as the minority and the vocal portion of the people who aren't even Star Wars fans. We hate those people too.

My biggest problem with TLJ (and I have many smaller ones) is the total annihilation of Luke's character. I'm getting rather tired and annoyed with this tendency in modern storytelling to write heroes with incredibly large flaws that they don't overcome (and before I go further, yes I understand that Star Wars was basically the story of Darth Vader, the actual hero, who completed a giant redemption arc. But Luke wasn't that character and his own "redemption arc" in TLJ was not satisfying in the least in any way shape or form). Yeah, it was neat the first few times for something different but now that's all there is. People say "well, it's unrealistic for someone to be ultimately perfect because nobody can relate to it" and to that I say....this is Star Wars. What about it is realistic? But I understand the meaning. The undercurrent archetypes in a story (even in a fantasy or sci-fi setting) can still be "true" as humanity has tendencies that people can relate to even subconsciously through a fictional story. The best stories tap into this emotional undercurrent living inside everyone and causes people to relate to it. This is first and foremost why Star Wars was successful in the first place, even besides the amazing effects and groundbreaking cinematography. It was a classic hero's journey story. As old as time. Ironically, this is exactly why I haven't been too drawn towards the stories of Rey, Poe, or Finn (though Finn is the most interesting, I'd say). I just don't buy their stories. Especially Rey, who basically has no obstacles to overcome and can already do everything right from the get-go. What's different about her from the beginning of TFA to the end of TLJ so far? Very little. She knows what the Force is now and knows how to use it (somehow). Even though she always knew it was there and always used it somehow. Someone just said "yeah, that's the Force" and she's like "oh" and proceeds to excel at basically everything without any training (and no, none of what she got in TLJ was training, just a bunch of jaded and cynical "lessons" about how much the Jedi suck).

Anyway, back to Luke. Why can't we have heroes again that ARE ultimately good? What's wrong with having heroes we can aspire to be. There's still a legitimate need and hunger in everyone to better themselves to perfection. And following an example of goodness is not something that's unrealistic or wrong. Luke is a super hero who had his origin story told. Luke already overcame all his obstacles and passed all those tests of evil temptations in the original trilogy. And then was commissioned by Yoda to "pass on what you have learned." Everything pointed to a future that he was going to be the one to bring a rebirth to the Jedi. He was a true Jedi. He didn't require any more training. He had everything he needed......and then he threw it all away by some crazy freak mistake and rash action to want to seriously consider and almost go through with killing his own nephew? THAT'S realistic?? Ok, let's just say it is realistic. Fine. I don't care. Luke would never do that. He was the perfect image of a Jedi. And this is where Mark is spot on. He was a character that needed to remain true to good and the "light side". Again, I don't see anything wrong with having a "super hero" (they're super for a reason) that can maintain their moral and ethical standing. No way in a million years would he have even thought about lifting a finger to attack Ben. No freaking way. I don't buy it.

That moment right there, and the subsequent demolition of Luke's character into a cowardly old fool hiding away from all his problems like a baby, is why people can't accept almost anything in the movie. There are other problems unrelated to that that seem just as unrealistic and shoddy writing to me, but Luke is the biggest one. And it hurts the most because Luke has always been my favourite character and my personal hero in that regard of maintaining his beliefs in what's good no matter what happens. No, you can't know everything, but there's a roadmap that's existed throughout all of time for everyone to follow to be a good person. Sure, it's possible for people to make mistakes and it happens all the time and it crumbles empires and dynasties and causes monumental chaos and destruction. But that shouldn't have been the kind of story Star Wars ever should have told. I just fundamentally disagree with the entire mindset and approach. "It's not realistic" you can say. Sure it is. It's not impossible to not make mistakes. And Luke should have remained the character that everyone aspired to be. Because of this I think it's incredibly lazy writing on Rian's part to transform Luke into this twisted false shadow of himself. Mark even said "maybe it's not Luke at all and it's his evil twin brother Jake Skywalker". I'd love to believe that.

Star Wars was a certain kind of story, and now it's a wholly different kind of story simply because of this one change. And I can't accept it. I won't. But I also just cannot. My mind won't let me accept it as a logical outcome. I can't attach myself to it. I already tried. I wanted to love the movie and admire it for being something different for once. I don't have anything wrong with it being different, but the direction it chose was simply the wrong one. And this is why I and many other people say "not my Star Wars."

I'm being kind of melodramatic about a movies series, I realize that. But I also believe stories are important to a society and popular culture is popular for a reason. It does have an immense effect. But BECAUSE this is "only a movie" I have the capacity to simply walk away from it. If this is how they're going to portray Star Wars, I don't have to have anything to do with it. They don't need my money or my attention. Have at it. But Star Wars has been ruined for me and a great many others and I hope I've related somehow how that makes sense in a sensible way and not a venomous outrage way. The stories are just entirely uninteresting to me now. And it's irreparable because Rian ensured nothing could retcon or remove everything he did. There's no recovery from this. TLJ has fractured the Star Wars fandom (far worse than the prequels ever could have) and it will probably never recover unless they someday write off the sequel trilogy out of existence in canon as if it never happened. It's actually impressive how Disney, Kathleen, and Rian have so effectively...so EFFECTIVELY...took a money-making franchise and totally ran it into the ground. Yes yes, like I said before it's only have the fandom, but half of an enormous fandom like Star Wars is bigger than most fandoms. Star Wars is/was one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) franchises of all time.

Ok ok ok ok I've gotta stop rambling now. This is very personal for me, though. Very sore spot. Good thing I'm primarily a Trekkie.

Although, modern Trek isn't doing so well anymore either really.....

Just give us back meta-heroes that aren't afraid to be written as true heroes and can be something we can aspire to again. I don't want to see a redemption arc anymore. Or worse yet, a falling arc. At least for a while. They're getting freaking old. It's not even cool anymore. It's just lazy and a cash-in because everyone's doing it.

I also think - after Return of the Jedi, there was a BUNCH - and I mean A BUNCH of books that came out that were considered "cannon" - until Disney took over and said, "Those books take place in an alternate Universe" (affectionately?) now called the "EU" (Extended Universe).

No, they've never been canon. George Lucas would sometimes absorb some of the elements from the EU (it was always called the Expanded Universe since before the Disney buyout) and bring it into canon. Like Coruscant being the Imperial City and the original capitol of the Republic. That was an EU name and location and he took it. Along with a few other things. But he always picked and chose. Everything otherwise was just meant to be enjoyed as an interesting "what if" because George Lucas wasn't explaining it himself. Same thing as all the Star Trek novels out there. None of them are "canon".

Maybe because I used to read comics the idea of multiple universes doesn't bother me, nor does the erasing of one continuity in favor of another. Comics have been doing this for years and I just grew accustomed to it.

I was ok with it as well when I heard it. So many people just wanted Disney to make the Thrawn trilogy as episodes 7, 8, and 9. Not only was that unrealistic (because that trilogy took place 10 years after ROTJ I believe and this was like 30 years), but I can understand the desire to tell a fresh new story that nobody knows anything about. Nobody wants a mere adaptation. Some people think they do, but they don't. So I understood this.

However....

Even so, Disney hasn't said that new books and comics can't be made. The Expanded Universe (which is now called "Legends") can still have new additions, it just won't be considered canonical or at least, part of the film-based timeline. I think this was a better compromise than outright destroying the Expanded Universe because it allows fans to continue with that particular timeline.

...this is untrue. "Legends" (formerly known as the "Expanded Universe", but no longer) has been retired permanently. There will be no more stories written in that "timeline". All forms of fiction be it video games, novels, TV shows, or comic books will ALL be under the umbrella of canon now and as such will be vetted, curated, and guided by the Star Wars Story Group to ensure that everything is cohesive, doesn't contradict, and makes sense with itself. Sometimes I wish they would allow new Legends stories to be written. I don't see why that would be a problem. But it's not ever happening. Perhaps they feel it would be too confusing? Either way Legends is dead, pure and simple.

Well, almost. We still have The Old Republic MMO which isn't canon and isn't being shut down anytime soon. But that's it.

[Tawmis]

From the comments made by the vocal minority, I get the sense that they're in their mid-to-late 20s at most and probably grew up watching the prequels. This probably accounts for the sudden glut of "positive comments about Episodes 1, 2, and 3" where before it was almost a joke or meme about how awful they were.

I've noticed the same, that a lot of people enjoy EP1-3, that I have spoken with on Twitter... and it sort of makes sense. I think a lot of these people are younger - so Phantom Menance was their introduction to Star Wars. It's just I am an old man on Twitter, where the rest of the audience is younger.

Maybe I'm unusually tolerant or simply don't get attached to intellectual properties like many other people do.

Well if you weren't attached to intellectual properties, you wouldn't have landed with the rest of us here on Sierra Help!

To be fair, social media in general is a cesspool. Obi-Wan Kenobi could've been describing social media when he said "You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

So... very... accurate.

And the irony being, there's probably anti-TLJ who think I am a part of that cesspool.

I'd never heard the term SJW (Social Justice Warrior) until The Last Jedi. And perhaps because of it, I saw it bleed into comments about comics as well - about letting female writers and artists take over as a "part of a woman's movement."

I started hearing it a while back regarding the whole GamerGate idiocy.

See, I never followed the gaming stuff on Twitter or social media in general, but there is now a "ComicsGate" movement.

Which is a shame. I think even a good portion of that vicious vocal minority of detractors probably are just really upset because the progression of these characters doesn't make logical sense to them (this is how I feel), but lash out because they don't know how to explain themselves properly. I've learned that when I can't explain myself I just take a breath and sleep on it or don't bother explaining at all. Not everyone (especially younger people) can resist that knee-jerk reaction to say something, though.

This could be true, and go back to me saying that the folks on Twitter are probably a younger lot than me, and can't seem to have a calm discussion without eventually going into trolling mode.

I tend to be more compassionate because I can understand where some of them are coming from.

I'd like to think I am compassionate (I did my Strengths Finder and it's one of mine!) - and I understand that they don't like The Last Jedi (I try to reflect on how I couldn't stand the prequels) to get that equal ground of understanding.

Indeed. The prequel love is staggeringly high these days.

Indeed, and I go back to because I think that's the "Star Wars" for the generation that's now old enough to be on social media.
(And there's nothing wrong with that, or them disliking The Last Jedi) - I just take offense when they get super personal about it, and attack actors, writers, etc.

When I say "majority" I don't mean that a majority of people who watched TLJ didn't like it. In fact, I'd say TLJ is split directly down the middle quite evenly between people who loved it and people who thought it was a disaster.

I can see that. As I've said, I enjoyed The Last Jedi (but had my issues with it; like Leia force flying herself back into the shuttle? WTF?). But Maico, who I (used to?) do the podcast with, can't stand the movie.

I just don't buy their stories. Especially Rey, who basically has no obstacles to overcome and can already do everything right from the get-go. What's different about her from the beginning of TFA to the end of TLJ so far? Very little. She knows what the Force is now and knows how to use it (somehow). Even though she always knew it was there and always used it somehow. Someone just said "yeah, that's the Force" and she's like "oh" and proceeds to excel at basically everything without any training (and no, none of what she got in TLJ was training, just a bunch of jaded and cynical lessons about how the Jedi suck).

Her Metacholorian count is off the charts is why.
This was basically my issue with the prequels and Anakin.
But the flip side is - you had Luke spend a few days with Yoda, and didn't complete his training (technically failed, perhaps? The trial in the cave where Yoda said you shouldn't take your weapon) - and what did Luke manage to pull off? He beat Darth Vader, who had years and years and years and years of experience of the Force (as well as apparently killing Jedi). Sure, you get the idea that he held back because Luke was his son - but the Emperor also got toasted for underestimating Luke (same Emperor who rose the greatest Empire army). Talk about someone who had no obstacles to overcome, I'd also say that was Luke if you analyze him.

Luke already overcame all his obstacles and passed all those tests of evil temptations in the original trilogy.

Didn't he technically fail? When he "encountered" Vader and cut off his head and saw his own face? Yoda's expression sure made it look like he failed.

That moment right there, and the subsequent demolition of Luke's character into a cowardly old fool hiding away from all his problems like a baby, is why people can't accept almost anything in the movie.

He learned from Ben and Yoda.
And what did they both do?
Ben hid on Tattoine to keep "an eye on Luke" (from a couple miles away) and Yoda hid on Daggobah.
It's not like he didn't have two teachers who weren't experts at running.

And this is why I and many other people say "not my Star Wars."

And nothing wrong with that.
I say the same thing about the orange man in Office. "Not my president."

I'm being kind of melodramatic about a movies series, I realize that. But I also believe stories are important to a society and popular culture is popular for a reason. It does have an immense effect.

Agreed! Lord forbid people diss THE HOBBIT book. (I don't care if they diss the HOBBIT movies, because those were a far cry from the book)

Although, modern Trek isn't doing so well anymore either really.....

Was curious how you felt about that?

What about the CBS exclusive one? "Star Trek Discovery" (or as I call it STD... )

No, they've never been canon. George Lucas would sometimes absorb some of the elements from the EU (it was always called the Expanded Universe since before the Disney buyout) and bring it into canon. Like Coruscant being the Imperial City and the original capitol of the Republic. That was an EU name and location and he took it. Along with a few other things. But he always picked and chose. Everything otherwise was just meant to be enjoyed as an interesting "what if" because George Lucas wasn't explaining it himself. Same thing as all the Star Trek novels out there. None of them are "canon".

Interesting. I thought I had heard - long before Disney came into the picture - that Lucas considered them canon.

Well, almost. We still have The Old Republic MMO which isn't canon and isn't being shut down anytime soon.

That we know of.

[Rath Darkblade]

I'm being kind of melodramatic about a movies series, I realize that. But I also believe stories are important to a society and popular culture is popular for a reason. It does have an immense effect.

Agreed! Lord forbid people diss THE HOBBIT book. (I don't care if they diss the HOBBIT movies, because those were a far cry from the book)

"The Hobbit" movies were, um ... interesting. (He says, trying to be charitable). They had some good moments when they tried to stick to the book, whether that book be "The Hobbit" or "The Silmarillion". But when they deviate from those two books, they fail, and fail dramatically.

Just compare and contrast these two scenes:

1. In the first movie, Thorin and the dwarfs sit in Bilbo's house at night and sing about their long-forgotten gold. For anyone who's ever lost their home (or been far from home) and longs to get back, this is made of all kinds of awesome. It's also very faithful to the book.

2. In the second movie, Bilbo - through his own courage, and a little bit of luck - manages to get the dwarfs out of Thranduil's stronghold by hiding them in empty wine barrels. So far, so good (and so book). It makes sense, because the dwarfs - and Bilbo - want to keep their escape a secret.

But then, for reasons known only to Peter Jackson, Thranduil's stronghold is attacked by orcs - and the dwarfs burst out of their barrels to help fight off the orcs. The Bombur barrel bounce scene is especially difficult to watch... sigh. How Bombur didn't break every single bone in his body, I will never understand!

Anyway, there are plenty of good moments in "The Hobbit" movies and plenty of bad ones. Note to Peter: that's what happens when you go off book!

It's no wonder, either: the LOTR trilogy had so much material that if Peter wanted to film it all, it could easily have gone on for four movies - but then everyone would say "What a rip-off!" It was also good because PJ (mostly) stuck to the books, with the glaring (VERY glaring) exceptions of Gimli and Faramir.

In contrast, the Hobbit book had so little material that PJ could have filmed it all in one film (or two, at a stretch) - but there were difficulties. In the book, the dwarfs (with the exception of Thorin and Bombur) are hardly distinguishable from each other (which isn't surprising, as it's a children's book). In a film, that would never do: PJ absolutely had to give each of them at least one distinguishing trait or feat.

Also, PJ had very little to work with in the original "Hobbit" book, compared to the LOTR trilogy. So he had to improvise - hence the extracts from "The Silmarillion".

I can even understand why Legolas is in the movies. After all, he is the son of Thranduil. It wouldn't make sense not to show Legolas at least once or twice. His involvement in the Battle of the Five Armies (where he seems to defy gravity) is a bit of a stretch, but I'm prepared to be charitable.

But even considering all that, the Tauriel character was completely out of left field. The romance between her and Kili was clunky and badly written, and just felt awkward.

In contrast, the scenes where Gandalf goes off to explore Mirkwood, finds Thrain in Dol Guldur, and is trapped by The Necromancer (aka Sauron) are well done, as are the scenes where Galadriel rescues him and they flee. PJ does tension and "running away" scenes very well.

All the same ... the movies are not a patch on the books. Sorry, PJ.

[MusicallyInspired]

@Tawm: I haven't even watched STD yet. I'm not that interested, either. Everything I've heard doesn't sound promising. I actually tend to like the newer movies (2009 was better than Into Darkness, though, but I didn't mind the latter either. I haven't seen Beyond yet). These days I get me Trek fix from The Orville.

As far as The Hobbit goes, I prefer the original cartoon by Rankin and Bass. That was my introduction to all things Tolkien. The Peter Jackson movies are fine. They have high points like the Galadriel and Sauron scene and some other low points. Definitely not like the books, but I think he felt the expectation was to make it an epic experience like Lord of the Rings and the book definitely was not that. I can just enjoy it, though. As far as Legolas being overpowered, I kind of felt they were stepping too much into that territory in Return of the King when he took down that entire Oliphaunt. I only expected them to go even more overboard because that's what you do in Hollywood. You have to outdo what you did before. This often ends in disaster, though.

Peter Jackson even admitted he had no idea what to do for The Battle of Five Armies, which is why they axed their initial plans for 2 movies and extended it to 3 because he needed more time.

[MusicallyInspired]

This guy's reviews of The Last Jedi (which is positive) and Solo (which is negative, and shifts his opinion on The Last Jedi) seem to echo very closely my own arc of feelings. He speaks very eloquently about how he felt initially and afterward about The Last Jedi so maybe it might be easier to understand where I'm coming from if you don't understand. Either way, I was on the same page as him with his Last Jedi review and I'm on the same page with him now in his Solo and overall "state of Star Wars" review. And he's very calm and fair about it all, so no outragey fanboy-ism here.

I should also add that I had watched his Last Jedi review back when I was a fan of the movie (and you can see my comment on his video agreeing with him), but I only watched his Solo/Star Wars Therapy video just today. So it's not like I got all my ideas from his videos and didn't think for myself. This is how I genuinely felt.

The Last Jedi (he starts talking specifically about the movie around 24 minutes in):
Solo - Star Wars Therapy:

[Tawmis]

"The Hobbit" movies were, um ... interesting. (He says, trying to be charitable). They had some good moments when they tried to stick to the book, whether that book be "The Hobbit" or "The Silmarillion". But when they deviate from those two books, they fail, and fail dramatically.

Yes. Emphasis on fail.

But then, for reasons known only to Peter Jackson, Thranduil's stronghold is attacked by orcs - and the dwarfs burst out of their barrels to help fight off the orcs. The Bombur barrel bounce scene is especially difficult to watch... sigh. How Bombur didn't break every single bone in his body, I will never understand!

Agreed. It was like they were afraid to have a calm moment.

In contrast, the Hobbit book had so little material that PJ could have filmed it all in one film (or two, at a stretch) - but there were difficulties. In the book, the dwarfs (with the exception of Thorin and Bombur) are hardly distinguishable from each other (which isn't surprising, as it's a children's book). In a film, that would never do: PJ absolutely had to give each of them at least one distinguishing trait or feat.

I wouldn't haven't minded a few little extras, to emphasize the difference of the dwarves. But that can be done through dialogue, without ruining the movie.

I can even understand why Legolas is in the movies. After all, he is the son of Thranduil. It wouldn't make sense not to show Legolas at least once or twice. His involvement in the Battle of the Five Armies (where he seems to defy gravity) is a bit of a stretch, but I'm prepared to be charitable.

Legolas didn't bother me too much. Being an elf, they live a long time; so to think he aged so little between The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings isn't far fetched, and does create a connection between The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. So that didn't bother me. While he was in the movie quite a bit, off and on, he didn't do anything that... broke the movie? Like he didn't kill the big bad, or do something so utterly insane.

But even considering all that, the Tauriel character was completely out of left field. The romance between her and Kili was clunky and badly written, and just felt awkward.

Yes. That was... all around odd. I would have preferred a deep friendship (Kili saves her life, so she's indebted to him? Sees the value of dwarves?) So that the loss would be that of a friendship that she could not save.

These days I get me Trek fix from The Orville.

Such a good show.

As far as The Hobbit goes, I prefer the original cartoon by Rankin and Bass. That was my introduction to all things Tolkien.

Still favorite of mine. I even had the 45.

[Tawmis]

This guy's reviews of The Last Jedi (which is positive) and Solo (which is negative, and shifts his opinion on The Last Jedi) seem to echo very closely my own arc of feelings. He speaks very eloquently about how he felt initially and afterward about The Last Jedi so maybe it might be easier to understand where I'm coming from if you don't understand. Either way, I was on the same page as him with his Last Jedi review and I'm on the same page with him now in his Solo and overall "state of Star Wars" review. And he's very calm and fair about it all, so no outragey fanboy-ism here.

I should also add that I had watched his Last Jedi review back when I was a fan of the movie (and you can see my comment on his video agreeing with him), but I only watched his Solo/Star Wars Therapy video just today. So it's not like I got all my ideas from his videos and didn't think for myself. This is how I genuinely felt.

I've not gotten to the SOLO one - currently still listening to The Last Jedi...
I do agree with something he's already said...

That some people do things for "LOLs"... and also engaging someone on Star Wars is probably going to be more venomous that engaging someone with a political thing on Twitter.

I also love his "I get it's a thing to hate things on the Internet - but you're being irrational and stupid."

I immediately thought of how people hate Nickleback (which I happen to love).

He does make the same point DPX made - that people have this idea what the movie SHOULD be, and then when it's not that - they get mad, and the bones just stack on top of each other.

He makes a point I do, that we're no longer the target demographic. ("Me at 13 would probably love this, but me at 35 didn't, but understanding that 13 year old me would, and I appreciate what they're doing.")

I will hand it to this guy - he does an amazing carrying a conversation with himself. Not being funny. What he does is a skill.

[DeadPoolX]

Two videos I really liked about The Last Jedi were from FilmJoy (who is more comedic) and the Pop Culture Detective (who is quite serious).

FJ goes over the movie in general and PCD talks about why "young males" were among the largest contingent of those furious at TLJ. PCD's video isn't anti-male in the slightest, but it's an interesting look at how traditional stories and male heroes have become ingrained in society and how TLJ was viewed within that context.

Here's FilmJoy's video:

Here's the Pop Culture Detective's video:

[Collector]

I haven't even watched STD yet. I'm not that interested, either. Everything I've heard doesn't sound promising. I actually tend to like the newer movies (2009 was better than Into Darkness, though, but I didn't mind the latter either. I haven't seen Beyond yet). These days I get me Trek fix from The Orville.

I have zero interest in STD. They have ignored what makes Trek Trek. Trek could and did use action, but it was NEVER *about* action until Jar Jar Abrams mutilated it.

STD is a continuation of that abuse, regardless of what timeline it claims to be. The Orville is enjoyable. It would be very Trek like if they just toned down the slapstick.

[Tawmis]

I have zero interest in STD. They have ignored what makes Trek Trek. Trek could and did use action, but it was NEVER *about* action until Jar Jar Abrams mutilated it.
STD is a continuation of that abuse, regardless of what timeline it claims to be. The Orville is enjoyable. It would be very Trek like if they just toned down the slapstick.

So you're saying STD is a good abbreviation of it?
I admit I was way more of a Star Wars person (obviously?), but watched the (original) Star Trek because my father did.
I actually enjoyed the original (and Next Generation) movies (except the "Save the whales" was a little much).
I've actually watched the newest Star Trek movies (alternate timeline?), but they're just "scifi" movies to me, not Star Trek. When I think of them that way, I can at least be entertained.
If I try to consider them Star Trek movies - despite not being the biggest fan - they feel way too forced.
I watched the first few episodes of STD, and did not hate what I saw. But again, I come from mostly ignorance about the depth of Star Trek lore (I am not ashamed/afraid to admit it).