Avengers: EndGame [Spoilers]

[Tawmis]

Went and saw it opening night... anyone else see it yet?

Please use spoiler tags in case someone clicks into the thread accidentally or whatever...

[MusicallyInspired]

Yes. Opening night on Thurs. Incredible to be a part of the end of a history-making cinematic experience like Star Wars was way back when. We all went to see Infinity War when it came out after having gone through all the original 18 movies before that in a row. Didn't go at all how I expected, but at least all the characters (the core 6) got their share of attention this time around (Captain America in Infinity War felt like a mere afterthought). So that was very satisfying. The ending sequence even more so. I also will always be a sucker for time travel stories if done reasonably well and I think this one was. I just wish Dr. Strange had more to do than to simply hold off a water flood. His battle sequence in Infinity War was the highlight of the whole movie for me.

I think I'm done with the MCU after this, though. There's no coming back to this high. It's a perfect end. I'll still watch Spiderman Far From Home when it comes out on video, but I'm done now. There's no where left to go but down.

I will watch another Dr. Strange movie, though. Really liked that one.

[Tawmis]

Well, there's no plan to "connect" them all to a big story line, apparently. Now they're just going to be "connected" (a shared universe) without building up to something, as I understand it.

The wife and I did a podcast about Avengers: EndGame for those interested, also:
http://comicreliefpodcast.com/archives/2215

[notbobsmith]

Finally saw it this past weekend. I really enjoyed it. I liked that they let the consequences of "The Snap" stand. Obviously, time travel of some sort was going to be involved, but it would have felt a little cheap if they simply had undone "Infinity War" so that "The Snap" never happened. That said, it's best not to think too much about how the rules of time travel work in this universe.

I was wondering how "Agents of SHIELD" was going to handle "Endgame". I had the first two episodes sitting on my DVR until I saw "Endgame". Pretty much every movie that has come out during the shows run gets at least mentioned contemporaneously, starting with "Thor: The Dark World", and of course the big twist in "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" changed the whole tone and direction of the series. Timing the episodes to coincide with the movie is actually kind of impressive. "Infinity War" was mentioned near the end of Season 5, but only that there was an invasion in New York. It's not clear how much time passes over the final episodes, but one could argue that the season ended just before "The Snap" occurs. Which brings us to Season 6... and there's no mention of what happened at all. It takes place 1 year after the end of Season 5, so 1 year after "Infinity War" meaning half the population is still gone. I guess this was a bridge too far for the showrunners. Trying to incorporate the events of "Infinity War" would get in the way of the story that they want to tell.

[Tawmis]

Finally saw it this past weekend. I really enjoyed it. I liked that they let the consequences of "The Snap" stand. Obviously, time travel of some sort was going to be involved, but it would have felt a little cheap if they simply had undone "Infinity War" so that "The Snap" never happened. That said, it's best not to think too much about how the rules of time travel work in this universe.

I was wondering how "Agents of SHIELD" was going to handle "Endgame". I had the first two episodes sitting on my DVR until I saw "Endgame". Pretty much every movie that has come out during the shows run gets at least mentioned contemporaneously, starting with "Thor: The Dark World", and of course the big twist in "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" changed the whole tone and direction of the series. Timing the episodes to coincide with the movie is actually kind of impressive. "Infinity War" was mentioned near the end of Season 5, but only that there was an invasion in New York. It's not clear how much time passes over the final episodes, but one could argue that the season ended just before "The Snap" occurs. Which brings us to Season 6... and there's no mention of what happened at all. It takes place 1 year after the end of Season 5, so 1 year after "Infinity War" meaning half the population is still gone. I guess this was a bridge too far for the showrunners. Trying to incorporate the events of "Infinity War" would get in the way of the story that they want to tell.

I believe the Alien Invasion is actually a reference to the first Avengers movie, no?

[notbobsmith]

Finally saw it this past weekend. I really enjoyed it. I liked that they let the consequences of "The Snap" stand. Obviously, time travel of some sort was going to be involved, but it would have felt a little cheap if they simply had undone "Infinity War" so that "The Snap" never happened. That said, it's best not to think too much about how the rules of time travel work in this universe.

I was wondering how "Agents of SHIELD" was going to handle "Endgame". I had the first two episodes sitting on my DVR until I saw "Endgame". Pretty much every movie that has come out during the shows run gets at least mentioned contemporaneously, starting with "Thor: The Dark World", and of course the big twist in "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" changed the whole tone and direction of the series. Timing the episodes to coincide with the movie is actually kind of impressive. "Infinity War" was mentioned near the end of Season 5, but only that there was an invasion in New York. It's not clear how much time passes over the final episodes, but one could argue that the season ended just before "The Snap" occurs. Which brings us to Season 6... and there's no mention of what happened at all. It takes place 1 year after the end of Season 5, so 1 year after "Infinity War" meaning half the population is still gone. I guess this was a bridge too far for the showrunners. Trying to incorporate the events of "Infinity War" would get in the way of the story that they want to tell.

I believe the Alien Invasion is actually a reference to the first Avengers movie, no?

The Season 5 episode I am thinking of aired the same weekend as the release of "Infinity War". The New York invasion was Strange, Iron Man and Spidey fighting Thanos' minions (I don't know their names).

[Tawmis]

Finally saw it this past weekend. I really enjoyed it. I liked that they let the consequences of "The Snap" stand. Obviously, time travel of some sort was going to be involved, but it would have felt a little cheap if they simply had undone "Infinity War" so that "The Snap" never happened. That said, it's best not to think too much about how the rules of time travel work in this universe.
I was wondering how "Agents of SHIELD" was going to handle "Endgame". I had the first two episodes sitting on my DVR until I saw "Endgame". Pretty much every movie that has come out during the shows run gets at least mentioned contemporaneously, starting with "Thor: The Dark World", and of course the big twist in "Captain America: The Winter Soldier" changed the whole tone and direction of the series. Timing the episodes to coincide with the movie is actually kind of impressive. "Infinity War" was mentioned near the end of Season 5, but only that there was an invasion in New York. It's not clear how much time passes over the final episodes, but one could argue that the season ended just before "The Snap" occurs. Which brings us to Season 6... and there's no mention of what happened at all. It takes place 1 year after the end of Season 5, so 1 year after "Infinity War" meaning half the population is still gone. I guess this was a bridge too far for the showrunners. Trying to incorporate the events of "Infinity War" would get in the way of the story that they want to tell.

I believe the Alien Invasion is actually a reference to the first Avengers movie, no?

The Season 5 episode I am thinking of aired the same weekend as the release of "Infinity War". The New York invasion was Strange, Iron Man and Spidey fighting Thanos' minions (I don't know their names).

Ah, OK. I might be thinking of an earlier season where they mention an Alien Invasion which is a reference to Avengers.

I have since stopped watching Agents of SHIELD (shortly after Ward came back; from the odd dimension thing - then back on Earth... I vaguely remember a car... or a car accident with Ward being involved)... After that I was out. I was never really into the show to begin with... I was mostly watching it because it was Marvel... I enjoyed when Sif was in it for a few episodes, but she was the reason I watched it as long as I did.

[Datadog]

Nine weeks late to the party, but I finally got to see Endgame last night!

Overall, really enjoyed it. Super-fun time travel heist, heavy tear-jerker moments, and some of the best acting the MCU has to offer. Mark Ruffalo's performance as Hulk is just a joy to watch (I still don't know why I laughed so hard at the scene where he gives Paul Rudd a taco.) And I love that their time travel antics actually make sense once I started overthinking them. That whole bit with Cap at the end blew my mind once I realized Peggy's husband was never named or shown in any previous movie.

There's a lot to unpack with this film because I've been invested with the MCU for so long. They've managed it so well, and even the worst movies of the bunch are still pretty good. I think the bit at the end of the credits solidified why these films work - it's the ongoing relationship between the filmmakers, the stars, and Stan Lee himself that give these movies a heart. I don't see that kind of chemistry in other comic book movies. But it also feels like this is where I have to part ways with the MCU for now. It was a very satisfying ending for 11+ years over 22 films, and was a natural place to end it. Also, these movies were only planned up until this point, so anything past this is new territory. Phase 4 and beyond simply have to win me over from scratch again.

I guess if I had any complaints at this point, it would be how there's still a "Guardians Vol. 3" on the way, and both "Infinity War" and "Endgame" just became mandatory viewing material to understand it, meaning it might as well be "Vol. 5" at this point. Until now, GOTG felt like the MCU's one stand-alone series, and the Russo Bros completely took over James Gunn's vision when they wrapped up Quill's character arc with Gamora, killed her off, replaced her with a temporal duplicate, and invited Thor to the team. I know cross-over events like this are common throughout the whole MCU, but I've liked GOTG so much on its own terms, it would've been nice to see a trilogy wrap up without any crossover confusion. Or maybe they'll work something out - we'll see.

Overall... 9/10 stars? 8.6? Somewhere in that ball park.

"I get e-mails from a raccoon. Nothing sounds crazy anymore."

[Tawmis]

Nine weeks late to the party, but I finally got to see Endgame last night!

How in Hades did you avoid spoilers for so long?

That whole bit with Cap at the end blew my mind once I realized Peggy's husband was never named or shown in any previous movie.[/spoiler]

Well, Peggy's husband in the past, I don't think is Steve Rogers... initially. Otherwise, Steve Rogers kissed his own daughter in Captain America: Civil War.
I believe, because Cap was frozen; Peggy married someone else, and then had a daughter.
So by Cap going back in time, and staying... that SHOULD, technically, erase Peggy's daughter from existence, since she never meets another guy to marry and have her daughter.
Unless Cap went back to a point, after she'd married and had the daughter... and perhaps Peggy divorced to be with her one true love...


Time travel gets complicated...

It also feels like this is where I have to part ways with the MCU for now. It was a very satisfying ending for 11+ years over 22 films, and was a natural place to end it. Also, these movies were only planned up until this point, so anything past this is new territory. Phase 4 and beyond simply have to win me over from scratch again.

So I wasn't sure that I would still feel the hype after Endgame... but I saw Spider-Man: Far From Home two nights ago - and it's freaking incredible.
And with James Gunn returning for GotG3... I am sure that's going to be a fun ride.

I guess if I had any complaints at this point, it would be how there's still a "Guardians Vol. 3" on the way, and both "Infinity War" and "Endgame" just became mandatory viewing material to understand it, meaning it might as well be "Vol. 5" at this point. Until now, GOTG felt like the MCU's one stand-alone series, and the Russo Bros completely took over James Gunn's vision when they wrapped up Quill's character arc with Gamora, killed her off, replaced her with a temporal duplicate, and invited Thor to the team. I know cross-over events like this are common throughout the whole MCU, but I've liked GOTG so much on its own terms, it would've been nice to see a trilogy wrap up without any crossover confusion. Or maybe they'll work something out - we'll see.

So... there is no time placed Gamora... that Gamora goes back, I believe. I don't think she's seen at the end - it's just Quill, Rocket, Thor, Drax, Groot and Mantis. I could be wrong, but I remember specifically checking for that... And while, yes cross overs are common in a comic, and the MCU is doing their best to make this feel like both a comic and a movie - by involving everyone - that would be like saying, these movies should just be called "Iron Man 12, 13, and 14" to understand what happened to Iron Man. Or if you missed Winter Soldier, why is this character in Infinity War and Endgame? I get that the first two GotG felt different (stand alone), but so did the first two Captain America movies, the first two Iron Man movies (there is NO Third Iron Man movie ... I refuse to acknowledge that #$!*), the first three Thor movies, etc. The only one that doesn't follow the "more than one" trend is Ant-Man & The Wasp (which is the second Ant-Man movie), because of the ending (with the snap effect).

[MusicallyInspired]

What is so wrong with Iron Man 3 anyway? I thought it was enjoyable. But so many people despise it. Does it break a lot of comic lore or something?

[Tawmis]

What is so wrong with Iron Man 3 anyway? I thought it was enjoyable. But so many people despise it. Does it break a lot of comic lore or something?

With the MCU, I throw "Comic Book Lore" out the window; as in I don't expect it to follow the comics. Some of the basics sure (Iron Man is Tony Stark, not Joe Schmoe, etc).
To me, Iron Man 3 should have been called "Tony Stark And The Kid." I felt like it had so little to do with Iron Man. I don't think it did anything to advance Tony Stark, as a character (for development).
The whole ending with all the armors, and how easily it's all defeated, was... silly.
And the whole thing with the Mandarin.... Is unforgivable. That's part where I throw out comic book lore, but expect it to have some of the basics.
Mandarin in the comics is a villain of Iron Man, who gets these magical rings, each with a different power...
So when Iron Man confronts Mandarin finally, and he's like, "Oh, woe is me, I am but an actor paid to play this part."
Wait. What? You took one of Iron Man's most iconic villains and turned him into an actor playing a part?
It is, what it is - but it was horrible. It's the one MCU movie that is not on my wishlist of movies to buy on Amazon.
I'd never demand a remake or anything like that (unlike some other "entitled fans" in the world these days... Star Wars, Game of Thrones, etc.) - but I was amused, that one of the "bonus footages" of Thor 2's DVD includes a scene with the Mandarin in jail - and someone comes for him - apparently the "real" Mandarin (which we never see, and nothing ever comes of it). But I think that was Marvel saying, "We acknowledge we may have messed that up pretty bad..."

[MusicallyInspired]

Ah yes, The Mandarin. I forgot about that one. I did hear an earful about that.

[Datadog]

How in Hades did you avoid spoilers for so long?

I stopped visiting most of the internet. The only spoiler that sneaked through was the nano-gauntlet they use to house the Infinity Stones, and that was because of a toy commercial.

Otherwise, Steve Rogers kissed his own daughter in Captain America: Civil War.

Sharon Carter is Peggy's grand-niece. He kissed Peggy's sister's grand-daughter, which is maybe(???) right on the edge of okay? (???)

Relationships were never the MCU's stronger points.

So... there is no time placed Gamora... that Gamora goes back, I believe. I don't think she's seen at the end - it's just Quill, Rocket, Thor, Drax, Groot and Mantis.

We don't see Gamora go with the team, but it's likely she's stayed in Timeline A with Nebula since there's nothing waiting for her back in 2014, and sending her back could further unravel the timeline. In any case, she wouldn't be part of the main Guardians line-up in Vol. 3, unless part of the plot involved her rejoining the team. I guess that disappoints me, since the two non-GOTG movies just messed up the family dynamic I was so invested in.

by involving everyone - that would be like saying, these movies should just be called "Iron Man 12, 13, and 14" to understand what happened to Iron Man.

I've literally been doing this and confusing/annoying people with it.

And the whole thing with the Mandarin.... Is unforgivable.

The Mandarin was one of the MCU's biggest mis-steps. I get that they didn't want to risk making him into an offensive Asian stereotype, but... couldn't they have just made the character without the "magic Chinese communist" angle? They didn't even need to call him "The Mandarin" since a lot of these MCU villains never get called by their comic book names anyway.

[MusicallyInspired]

IMO they wouldn't need to change anything. It seems to me that that history has shown that audiences are much more accepting if you're respectful and authentic to the source material.

[Tawmis]

We don't see Gamora go with the team, but it's likely she's stayed in Timeline A with Nebula since there's nothing waiting for her back in 2014, and sending her back could further unravel the timeline. In any case, she wouldn't be part of the main Guardians line-up in Vol. 3, unless part of the plot involved her rejoining the team. I guess that disappoints me, since the two non-GOTG movies just messed up the family dynamic I was so invested in.

I would think she would have to go back? Because if she doesn't go back, then she doesn't die "for Thanos" to get the Soul Gem. Which I would think, further make a mess of the time line.

And the whole thing with the Mandarin.... Is unforgivable.

The Mandarin was one of the MCU's biggest mis-steps. I get that they didn't want to risk making him into an offensive Asian stereotype, but... couldn't they have just made the character without the "magic Chinese communist" angle? They didn't even need to call him "The Mandarin" since a lot of these MCU villains never get called by their comic book names anyway.

They could have easily ditched the "Chinese Communist" angle and just made him a guy - who was in China, Tibet, wherever they wanted - who stumbled upon the rings. Iron Man senses some weird energy signatures - goes to check it out - fights Mandarin. Something as easy as that. Instead of having the 10 Rings... in the MCU... he leads a terrorist organization called "The Ten Rings." This is stuff that would make even DC Movie Writers cringe.

IMO they wouldn't need to change anything. It seems to me that that history has shown that audiences are much more accepting if you're respectful and authentic to the source material.

I have been into comics over 40 years - and they've made a lot - a LOT of changes in the MCU - and I've not minded any of them... well, except the Mandarin (and all of Iron Man 3).
I don't mind if they change the source material... as Datadog said - I don't think the villains in MCU ever call themselves by their "villain" name (this seems to be a hero thing?) - other than, obviously Loki... well, since that's his real name.
I think the Red Skull called himself Red Skull during the first Captain America movie. And Ultron - but he's a robot, so he doesn't really have a "secret identity." But if I were to mention Crossbones, Whiplash, Klaw, Baron Zemo, some you could easily pick up who they were - but they don't call themselves by their name (well Helmut Zemo ... but he never says Baron Zemo, I don't think). There's a few other minor ones, that are slipping my mind, that they squeezed in there.