Comic Book Discussion (was Marvel Super Hero Stuff.)

[Rath Darkblade]

Oh, sorry. I thought the guy with the shield was Captain America? I'm confused.

I guess you just ignored the other image I uploaded? You know, the one with the anatomically impossible chest?

Have you never seen a picture of Captain America before? That seems almost impossible. Even before the MCU he was incredibly well known, if for nothing else for that picture of him punching Hitler.

Sorry, DPX; I didn't ignore it. I was trying to agree with you. *blush*

I've only ever seen images of Captain America very briefly. He's not a character that gets much coverage here in Australia, apart from the occasional super-hero film.

Looking at more recent images ... yikes! Not only can Rob not draw feet, it seems he's also ignorant of basic anatomical facts about the arms and abdomen. Captain America's arm in the "golden" suit is grotesquely over-muscled, and his breasts are the size of balloons compared to his abdomen. I wonder how he can breathe.

[Tawmis]

According to Rob Liefeld, Cap's body and skeleton probably looks like that mess below. I've also included a good example of what Liefeld thinks women look like, which suggests to me he's never seen one in real life.

OMG - whoever did the MUCH better version of my attempt to explain the Cap anatomy is amazing.


Even after years of being told he couldn't draw feet - when he and other high profile artists left Marvel and formed Image Comics - Rob launched "Youngblood #1" and....

... as you can see, Rob managed to avoid drawing feet on the cover.

However -

Youngblood #1 (April 1992) was the first Image Comics publication. At the time of its release, it was the highest selling independent comic book published

But let's read the rest:

.... despite receiving poor reviews from critics for the unclear storytelling effected by both Liefeld's art and the book's flip format, which some readers found confusing; poor anatomy; incorrect perspective; non-existent backgrounds; poor dialogue; and the late shipping of the book, a problem that continued with subsequent issues. In an interview in Hero Illustrated #4 (October 1993), Liefeld conceded disappointment with the first four issues of Youngblood, calling the first issue a "disaster". He explained that production problems, as well as sub-par scripting by his friend and collaborator Hank Kanalz, whose employment Liefeld later terminated, resulted in work that was lower in quality than that which Liefeld produced when Fabian Nicieza scripted his plots on X-Force, and that reprints of those four issues would be re-scripted. Writer and columnist Peter David pointed to Liefeld's scapegoating of Kanalz as an example of Liefeld's failure to take responsibility for his project, and evidence that genuine collaboration with good writers like Louise Simonson and Fabian Nicieza, which some of the Image founders did not appreciate, had previously reflected better on Liefeld's art. Throughout its run at Image, Youngblood, as well as other books published by Liefeld's Extreme Studios, were attacked by critics for late issues and inconsistent quality.

But let's learn more about Rob...

In June 1996, Marc Silvestri temporarily left Image with his Top Cow imprint over issues with Liefeld, with Image Comics executive director Larry Marder saying Liefeld "was making an increasing number of business decisions that were counterproductive to being a business partner". In early September, Liefeld issued a press release stating he was resigning his position at Image and leaving the group. Nearly simultaneously, the Image partners issued a press release stating that they had fired Liefeld. His resignation came only minutes before the second meeting that would have forced him out. Liefeld moved all his publishing ventures into a new company, Awesome Comics. This new enterprise, announced in April 1997 as a partnership between Liefeld and Malibu Comics founding partner Scott Mitchell Rosenberg, concentrated its efforts on newer properties.

Mind you, I've met Marc Silvestri MANY times and the dude is amazing. So if he annoyed Marc, that's saying something.

So what about his company "Awesome Comics"? Yeah - let's talk about that...

After leaving Captain America, Liefeld attempted to buy the rights to Fighting American, a similarly patriotically themed 1954 character from Captain America's creators, Joe Simon and Jack Kirby. The still-living Simon and Kirby's widow agreed to a figure Liefeld felt was too high, and he created a new similar character, Agent America. Simon threatened to sue, and the parties renegotiated a deal acceptable to all. Marvel Comics then sued Liefeld, who was allowed to use the character but not have him throw his shield weapon, a distinctive action of Captain America.

Let's look at Agent America, shall we?

unnamed.jpg (62.04 KiB) Viewed 6753 times

Pretty much Captain America. Rob....

But that's not the only time he's done this.

The character in the center of this photo...

Looks a lot like Colossus of the X-Men:

Preview-1565282502.jpg (23.08 KiB) Viewed 6753 times

And the character in Bloodstrike in the lower left...

Looks a lot like Wolverine of the X-Men:

He's also not very reliable...

In 2010, a new volume of Brigade was released through Image Comics, which saw the original team updated and the original miniseries reimagined. The team was now formed in response to advance warning of an alien invasion. The history of the main characters has now been changed and the source of their powers stems from genetic advancements. The first issue of the new miniseries was released on 8 July 2010 with Rob Liefeld writing the story, Mark Poulton scripting, and Marat Mychaels returning on art duties. No further issues have been released since then.

He launched a Kickstarter and took 35,000 dollars back in 2013 and didn't deliver. The kicker - he then made a Indiegogo campaign for the same thing. He did recently (Jan 2021) update his Kickstarter and say issues are on the way (8 years later.... and the comments look like no one has gotten it....)

[JasefWisener]

As far as I know, Rob Liefeld is the only person that's blocked me on Twitter, and it's because I trolled him hard one time about his terrible art from an issue of Hawk and Dove where he drew Damien Wayne as Robin to look about 15 years older.

This was supposed to be a 10 year old:

[DeadPoolX]

You know what's always bugged me about comic book art, regardless of who the artist is? It's womens' chests.

Okay, let me explain. In most cases, everyone is wearing uncomfortably tight outfits, right? For women this usually means that each breast is hugged (for lack of a better term) to the extent it conforms to the breast's complete shape, and then does this for both breasts separately.

A good example would be Dove in that picture Jasef posted. That's not how ANY material fits over a woman's chest, not matter how busty she may be.

What would really happen is the fabric gets stretched but there's no indentation between the breasts. This would lead to what some have dubbed "the uni-boob" but that's far more realistic than what effectively amounts to having a costume that's spray-painted on.

Here's an example of what a woman's chest, regardless of her breast size, should look like if the shirt she's wearing is tight-fitting.

[Tawmis]

As far as I know, Rob Liefeld is the only person that's blocked me on Twitter, and it's because I trolled him hard one time about his terrible art from an issue of Hawk and Dove where he drew Damien Wayne as Robin to look about 15 years older.

This was supposed to be a 10 year old:

I don't think I've ever seen Rob draw a young kid. Ever. Not even as a background character.

What would really happen is the fabric gets stretched but there's no indentation between the breasts. This would lead to what some have dubbed "the uni-boob" but that's far more realistic than what effectively amounts to having a costume that's spray-painted on.

Hah.

hah....

sigh.

Damn you. I'd actually never even thought of that.

They manage to do a good job of that with Storm...

Back in the day, anyway.

But you're right.

Especially into the 80's - when I think comics became really popular and the target truly turned towards targeting (straight) teenage males... breasts increased in size. And the uniforms changed.

And that's subtle.

Breast sizes increased more into the 90s.

[notbobsmith]

I was going to ask how Liefeld still gets work, but then there's Michael Bay movies. I'm guessing Liefeld's stuff must still sell.

According to Rob Liefeld, Cap's body and skeleton probably looks like that mess below. I've also included a good example of what Liefeld thinks women look like, which suggests to me he's never seen one in real life.

The reason they do that, of course, is to show both the breasts and butt at the same time.

You know what's always bugged me about comic book art, regardless of who the artist is? It's womens' chests.

Okay, let me explain. In most cases, everyone is wearing uncomfortably tight outfits, right? For women this usually means that each breast is hugged (for lack of a better term) to the extent it conforms to the breast's complete shape, and then does this for both breasts separately.

A good example would be Dove in that picture Jasef posted. That's not how ANY material fits over a woman's chest, not matter how busty she may be.

What would really happen is the fabric gets stretched but there's no indentation between the breasts. This would lead to what some have dubbed "the uni-boob" but that's far more realistic than what effectively amounts to having a costume that's spray-painted on.

Here's an example of what a woman's chest, regardless of her breast size, should look like if the shirt she's wearing is tight-fitting.

To be fair, even the men's costumes do the same thing. No clothing, no matter how form fitting will show muscle definition like that. Of course when they do it with women's costumes, it's meant to be sexualized.

[DeadPoolX]

Damn you. I'd actually never even thought of that.

[...]

But you're right.

If it makes you feel any better, I didn't notice it myself until Maia commented on it.

Especially into the 80's - when I think comics became really popular and the target truly turned towards targeting (straight) teenage males... breasts increased in size. And the uniforms changed.

[...]

Breast sizes increased more into the 90s.

Basically, when comics went from "geeks-to-mainstream." The quickest way to appeal to a straight, male teenage audience is T&A. That works on guys of all ages, of course, but certainly the 13-to-18 year-old demographic is the most easily swayed, probably due to raging hormones.

I was going to ask how Liefeld still gets work, but then there's Michael Bay movies. I'm guessing Liefeld's stuff must still sell.

To be fair, some of Michael Bay's stuff CAN be fun if you don't go in expecting anything of any substance and just want a larger-than-life action flick.

The reason they do that, of course, is to show both the breasts and butt at the same time.

Oh, absolutely. You see it all over, actually. Marvel and Disney drew some criticism for this when it came to Black Widow on MCU movie posters.

To be fair, even the men's costumes do the same thing. No clothing, no matter how form fitting will show muscle definition like that. Of course when they do it with women's costumes, it's meant to be sexualized.

Yeah, a lot of the costumes look like they were shrink-wrapped onto the guys . No outfit would showcase muscles the way costumes tend to in comics.

This is one of the reasons why Iron Man used to confuse me: why the hell would armor have muscles? Look back at most of Iron Man's armor over the decades and you'll see muscles. If it's an armored suit, it shouldn't have muscles and they finally realized that in the early 2000s, which is why Iron Man is drawn very differently today.

[Tawmis]

This is one of the reasons why Iron Man used to confuse me: why the hell would armor have muscles? Look back at most of Iron Man's armor over the decades and you'll see muscles. If it's an armored suit, it shouldn't have muscles and they finally realized that in the early 2000s, which is why Iron Man is drawn very differently today.

Well, what's funny - when Iron Man first appeared - his armor was drawn like "clothing" - and there's an issue where he folds it - like clothes - and puts it in a briefcase. (It's early IRON MAN or AVENGERS). But here's an example:

You can see how his boot on the floor looks like a clothing boot.

They eventually kept the "suitcase" but modernized it over the years...

Which - let's face it - that's weigh hundreds of pounds if he fit the whole thing in there.

[Rath Darkblade]

I was going to ask how Liefeld still gets work, but then there's Michael Bay movies. I'm guessing Liefeld's stuff must still sell.

To be fair, some of Michael Bay's stuff CAN be fun if you don't go in expecting anything of any substance and just want a larger-than-life action flick.

You think Michael Bay movies are bad? Try Ed Wood. His films are in a category of their own, far beyond "so bad, it's good".

Or Night M Shyamalan. I don't care how many Academy nominations he gets or how much money he makes. With one or two exceptions, his films are utter crap.

[notbobsmith]

I was going to ask how Liefeld still gets work, but then there's Michael Bay movies. I'm guessing Liefeld's stuff must still sell.

To be fair, some of Michael Bay's stuff CAN be fun if you don't go in expecting anything of any substance and just want a larger-than-life action flick.

You think Michael Bay movies are bad? Try Ed Wood. His films are in a category of their own, far beyond "so bad, it's good".

Or Night M Shyamalan. I don't care how many Academy nominations he gets or how much money he makes. With one or two exceptions, his films are utter crap.

Oh, I absolutely adore "Plan 9 from Outer Space". Poorly made, goofy fun. My problem with Michael Bay movies is that they're... obnoxious. The characters are annoying. The action scenes have so much crammed into it and they're cut so often, I become numb to what's going on. We were talking about "Spock's Brain" from "Star Trek" in another thread. It too, was dumb and goofy, but in an enjoyable way. "Turnabout Intruder" is also dumb, but is cringe inducing. I feel the same way about Michael Bay. I find his films to be mostly unenjoyable. And the sad thing is, compared to Ed Wood, Bay isn't constrained by budget. And why was Bay constantly changing the aspect ratio in the last Transformers movie!?

I think M. Night Shymalan got awards nominations for The Sixth Sense, which was a great movie. I like one or two others, but yes most every thing since has been crap. But critics and audiences pretty much abandoned him anyway, at least until recently.

[DeadPoolX]

Regarding Michael Bay... I actually liked The Rock (despite its many plot holes), but that was the 90s, too. I haven't seen that movie in years, so it's entirely possible I'd hate it today.

On the commentary for Armageddon, Ben Affleck talks about his issues with the plot of the movie. I'd post the comments here, but you have to listen to it.



An interesting bit of trivia is that Michael Bay's cousin, Susan Bay Nimoy, was Leonard Nimoy's wife (now widow). That means Leonard Nimoy was Michael Bay's cousin-in-law, which might also explain how Bay got Nimoy to voice Sentinel Prime in the third Transformers* movie.

* Yes, I know Leonard Nimoy voiced Galvatron in the animated Transformers movie back in 1986, but I can't imagine that had anything to do with Nimoy actively wanting to voice a character in the Transformers franchise again.

[notbobsmith]

* Yes, I know Leonard Nimoy voiced Galvatron in the animated Transformers movie back in 1986, but I can't imagine that had anything to do with Nimoy actively wanting to voice a character in the Transformers franchise again.

It could be fan service casting. They brought Nimoy back solely because he was in the '86 movie. Bryan Cranston was in the Power Rangers movie pretty much because people learned he was a voice of a few monsters in the TV series.

[Tawmis]

Remember how DPX mentioned pouches and guns?

Had me cracking up. On that, I was looking for something else - when I found this (which is pretty cute - variant covers of the actual #1 issues)...

Which lead to this...

Which is one of my all time favorite covers by Jim Lee.

Which has been redone a few times...

[Rath Darkblade]

Oh! *light-bulb == on* So that's what they mean by recycling comics.

[Tawmis]

One of my favorite 90's Image books was Cyberforce.