So ... CRPGs are on sale again at GOG. Any recommendations?

[Rath Darkblade]

Heh. Apparently Pathfinder and Pathfinder 2 are both on sale. They both look good (and are apparently based on D&D 3.5), but I'm hesitant because reviews for the first game say that the mechanics are broken -- i.e. first thing after the tutorial, you run into a spider swarm ... that reduces your party to goo. Again and again and again. Until you figure out that spiders are only vulnerable to magic, not weapons. WTF?

Yes, I could skip Pathfinder 1 and try Pathfinder 2, but then I'd miss out on the story/characters/etc. It'd be like playing PoE2 without having played PoE1.

Have you played Pathfinder at all? What did you think?

I've also noticed that classics like Baldur's Gate 1, Baldur's Gate 2, Icewind Dale, Planescape: Torment etc. are on sale at GOG, too. They're all before my time, but I know some of you have played these ... ( *looks at Tawm* ) ... so what did you think? Are they worth playing? Just wondering.

Thanks!

[Tawmis]

Heh. Apparently Pathfinder and Pathfinder 2 are both on sale. They both look good (and are apparently based on D&D 3.5), but I'm hesitant because reviews for the first game say that the mechanics are broken -- i.e. first thing after the tutorial, you run into a spider swarm ... that reduces your party to goo. Again and again and again. Until you figure out that spiders are only vulnerable to magic, not weapons. WTF?

Yes, I could skip Pathfinder 1 and try Pathfinder 2, but then I'd miss out on the story/characters/etc. It'd be like playing PoE2 without having played PoE1.

Have you played Pathfinder at all? What did you think?

I've also noticed that classics like Baldur's Gate 1, Baldur's Gate 2, Icewind Dale, Planescape: Torment etc. are on sale at GOG, too. They're all before my time, but I know some of you have played these ... ( *looks at Tawm* ) ... so what did you think? Are they worth playing? Just wondering.

Thanks!

I enjoyed BG and IWD - both the classics, and the Enhanced Editions. Never played Planescape, however.

[Tawmis]

I recently picked up "Grimoire : Heralds of the Winged Exemplar" because it reminds me of Wizardry.

[notbobsmith]

I recently picked up "Grimoire : Heralds of the Winged Exemplar" because it reminds me of Wizardry.

$0.99 isn't bad. I looked up the title. I guess it has been in development for 20 years, so it is from that era. And some of the people worked on the Wizardry series.

[Tawmis]

I recently picked up "Grimoire : Heralds of the Winged Exemplar" because it reminds me of Wizardry.

$0.99 isn't bad. I looked up the title. I guess it has been in development for 20 years, so it is from that era. And some of the people worked on the Wizardry series.

Oh, make no mistake. It might as well be Wizardry 6.5 - the entire way it looks, feels, works.

[DeadPoolX]

Heh. Apparently Pathfinder and Pathfinder 2 are both on sale. They both look good (and are apparently based on D&D 3.5), but I'm hesitant because reviews for the first game say that the mechanics are broken -- i.e. first thing after the tutorial, you run into a spider swarm ... that reduces your party to goo. Again and again and again. Until you figure out that spiders are only vulnerable to magic, not weapons. WTF?

Yes, I could skip Pathfinder 1 and try Pathfinder 2, but then I'd miss out on the story/characters/etc. It'd be like playing PoE2 without having played PoE1.

Have you played Pathfinder at all? What did you think?

Those two games are actually known as Kingmaker (first game) and Wrath of the Righteous (second game). Pathfinder is a ruleset and it's only shown as part of those games' names to tell people it's not "regular D&D." In fact, both PoE games use Pathfinder as well.

I have no idea if KM and WotR connect at all. You'll need to find that out for yourself, but it's possible they have nothing to do with one another beyond being in the same game world.

As for reviews on GOG or Steam, look at when those reviews were made. Quite often there are older reviews shown that are no longer relevant due to updates and patches. Also, some people are morons and are just too stupid to figure out how to play an RPG properly, so they blame their dumbassery on the game itself.

I'd recommend looking at some reviews or "Let's Play" runs on YouTube. Don't limit yourself to IGN or any professional source. Look at independent sources on YouTube as well, such as ACG or SplatterCatGaming or Raptor or IGP.

I've also noticed that classics like Baldur's Gate 1, Baldur's Gate 2, Icewind Dale, Planescape: Torment etc. are on sale at GOG, too. They're all before my time, but I know some of you have played these ... ( *looks at Tawm* ) ... so what did you think? Are they worth playing? Just wondering.

BG1, BG2, IWD, and P:T aren't "before your time" unless you were born post-2000 (and I'm pretty damn sure you're older than that).

[Tawmis]

BG1, BG2, IWD, and P:T aren't "before your time" unless you were born post-2000 (and I'm pretty damn sure you're older than that).

The ones on sale BG1, BG2 and IWD are the "Enhanced Editions" which makes it better than it originally was. I actually don't see P:T on the sale list:
https://www.gog.com/partner/rpg_celebration

[Rath Darkblade]

Tawm, P:T is on sale too. Here: https://www.gog.com/game/planescape_tor ... ed_edition

DPX, what I mean by saying that BG1, BG2, IWD and P:T are "before my time" is that I was too young (or too broke) when they came out to be able to afford or appreciate them at that time (i.e. 1999, 2000, 2001). If I recall, not long after, a certain little-known CRPG called "Neverwinter Nights" was causing me to miss a lot of sleep.

I'm pretty sure that, compared to modern RPGs, BG1/2, IWD and P:T would look primitive (but comparable to NWN1). What do they have in their favour? *curious* I've heard plenty of good things about them - good plot, good characters etc. What are the mechanics like?

[DeadPoolX]

DPX, what I mean by saying that BG1, BG2, IWD and P:T are "before my time" is that I was too young (or too broke) when they came out to be able to afford or appreciate them at that time (i.e. 1999, 2000, 2001).

Well, okay... sure, that makes sense. It's just when people usually say "before my time" they mean it as "before I was born."

I'm pretty sure that, compared to modern RPGs, BG1/2, IWD and P:T would look primitive (but comparable to NWN1).

Depends on what you mean by "comparable." Yes, I know what that word means, it's just that BG1/2, IWD1/2, and P:T are all party-based isometric 2.5D games, whereas NWN1 was 3D and had a very limited party structure. They look nothing alike, and their gameplay differs quite a bit.

Overall, I think the older 2.5D games have aged better (especially after getting HD "enhanced editions") than NWN1's blocky 3D graphics.

NWN1 also received an "enhanced edition" HD upgrade, but the limitations of that game's primitive 3D engine means that while textures might look somewhat better, character models still look like crap today (although I think they finally added skyboxes, so that's a plus).

Even Maia, who loved NWN1 (mostly due to all the modules available; she felt the main campaign was so-so at best), recently told me that NWN1 was painful to look at nowadays and she doesn't think she could ever go back to it.

For some reason I've always hated NWN1. I don't know why. I really tried to give it a chance, but in the end, I just couldn't stand the game. I liked BG2 and both IWD games. I never played BG1 or P:T, so I can't comment on those.

What do they have in their favour? *curious* I've heard plenty of good things about them - good plot, good characters etc. What are the mechanics like?

I think this question could best be answered by looking up video reviews or "Let's Play" videos (preferably of the "enhanced editions," although the original editions might suffice as well) on YouTube. You might also find some written reviews on various sites, and of course there are player reviews on GOG and Steam. Like I said earlier in this thread, remember that many player reviews are about older versions of games before they get patched and updated, and it's rare that players update their own reviews to reflect this.

That said, here are some things I'll say about BG1/2, IWD1/2, and P:T...

1. You need to be careful when you talk to people. Whichever character you're controlling at that moment is the one who'll talk, and sometimes you might want someone else (especially if they have better charisma) to speak instead.

2. BG1/2, IWD1, and P:T all use the 2nd Edition D&D ruleset, whereas IWD2 used the 3rd Edition (like NWN1). The reason I bring this up is because the 2nd Edition ruleset has some game mechanics that are very different from all later editions, such as the better AC you have, the lower number it is. I think they based it all on an enemy's chance to hit you, so if you had a "-1 AC" that was actually a good thing in the 2nd Edition, whereas it'd obviously be terrible in all editions after that.

3. At least in BG2, I distinctly recall there being some timed missions. Nothing like "escape the castle before it blows up as a timer ticks down" or anything, but there's at least one character who will actually leave your party if you don't do her quest after enough time has gone by. Unfortunately, I can't tell you how much time that is as it's been years since I played. I just remember this being really annoying since games generally "cry wolf" when it comes to doing things in a timely fashion.

4. In BG1/2, IWD1/2, and P:T you'll only gain experience for characters who're with you in your party at the time you gain said experience. In other words, unlike more recent RPGs (and by recent I mean even as far back as KoTOR in 2003), you don't gain experience for everyone, regardless of whether or not they're actively with you at the time. The problem with this is that if some story-related event occurs that removes a character you really like and usually take with you, you'll then be forced to take along an underdeveloped low-level character as a replacement. The only way around this is to try and rotate characters you bring so everyone gains at least some experience, but that's a real pain in the butt.

[Tawmis]

NWN1 also received an "enhanced edition" HD upgrade, but the limitations of that game's primitive 3D engine means that while textures might look somewhat better, character models still look like crap today (although I think they finally added skyboxes, so that's a plus).

NWN1 had skyboxes before the enhanced edition. Because I was able to select whatever skyboxes I wanted when making the Neverending Nights series.

Even Maia, who loved NWN1 (mostly due to all the modules available; she felt the main campaign was so-so at best), recently told me that NWN1 was painful to look at nowadays and she doesn't think she could ever go back to it.
For some reason I've always hated NWN1. I don't know why. I really tried to give it a chance, but in the end, I just couldn't stand the game. I liked BG2 and both IWD games. I never played BG1 or P:T, so I can't comment on those.

I still like the original NWN (Bioware version, not AOL version to be clear).

[DeadPoolX]

NWN1 had skyboxes before the enhanced edition. Because I was able to select whatever skyboxes I wanted when making the Neverending Nights series.

Really? Because Maia and I remember a distinct lack of skyboxes, where the sky was nothing but pitch black. Maybe that was added in an update or expansion, but long before the enhanced editions.

Regardless, one thing NWN did really well was give players an easy-to-use toolset. No other RPG has come close with a toolset that's as user-friendly.

I still like the original NWN (Bioware version, not AOL version to be clear).

Most people wouldn't even know of the old AOL version!

[Rath Darkblade]

Yes, NWN1 has skyboxes, but obviously relatively primitive ones compared to the CRPGs of today. Just to digress a bit: I don't think I've seen a skybox that convinced me until Oblivion and (obviously) Skyrim.

DPX, what do you mean by NWN's toolset? *curious* I tried googling what a CRPG toolset is, but instead I got definitions of what a CRPG is (which I already know, obviously!)

Do you mean NWN1's tools for creating modules? Or do you mean the "belt" at the bottom of the screen, where you could put handy items like potions, scrolls, spells etc.?

Yes, I've never heard of the AOL version of NWN. What on earth is it? All I know of AOL is that it stands for America Online, it used to be an ISP in the old dial-up days, and it used to play a sound-effect ("You've got mail!") every time you got an email, which drove lots of people bananas. Ah, and AOL still exists - but as part of Yahoo!. *shrug* Oh well.

Sigh ... meanwhile, GOG's sale is finished. Maybe next time.

[DeadPoolX]

Yes, NWN1 has skyboxes, but obviously relatively primitive ones compared to the CRPGs of today. Just to digress a bit: I don't think I've seen a skybox that convinced me until Oblivion and (obviously) Skyrim.

Again, neither of us recall there being a skybox in NWN1, but maybe it was added in later by the expansions or maybe the skyboxes were so awful we can't remember them.

DPX, what do you mean by NWN's toolset? *curious* I tried googling what a CRPG toolset is, but instead I got definitions of what a CRPG is (which I already know, obviously!) Do you mean NWN1's tools for creating modules?

Any game engine that has tools for the end user to create stuff is called a "toolset" or a "toolkit." In NWN1's case, the tools for creating modules was called the Aurora Toolset, named after the Aurora Engine that the game was built on.

I also looked up "CRPG toolset" on DuckDuckGo, and the first link that showed up (to a site called RPG Codex) would've essentially answered your question.

Additionally, you could looked up the NWN1 on Wikipedia or on the NWN Wiki to find info on the Aurora toolset.

Or do you mean the "belt" at the bottom of the screen, where you could put handy items like potions, scrolls, spells etc.?

That's a toolbar, not a toolset. I guess you could also call it a tool belt, but I've never heard anyone say that when it relates to RPGs.

Yes, I've never heard of the AOL version of NWN. What on earth is it?

You could always look up the AOL-hosted version of NWN on Mobygames.

[Tawmis]

NWN1 had skyboxes before the enhanced edition. Because I was able to select whatever skyboxes I wanted when making the Neverending Nights series.

Really? Because Maia and I remember a distinct lack of skyboxes, where the sky was nothing but pitch black. Maybe that was added in an update or expansion, but long before the enhanced editions.

I think Skyboxes were from the gate. However, a lot of the game takes place in dungeons - and there, there's no "skybox" or "ceiling" - it's literally just blackness, which I always hated.

Regardless, one thing NWN did really well was give players an easy-to-use toolset. No other RPG has come close with a toolset that's as user-friendly.

Absolutely agree. I think a toolset like this for a Star Wars game would make a killing.

I still like the original NWN (Bioware version, not AOL version to be clear).

Most people wouldn't even know of the old AOL version!

I'm just old.

DPX, what do you mean by NWN's toolset? *curious* I tried googling what a CRPG toolset is, but instead I got definitions of what a CRPG is (which I already know, obviously!)
Do you mean NWN1's tools for creating modules? Or do you mean the "belt" at the bottom of the screen, where you could put handy items like potions, scrolls, spells etc.?

For creating modules and stuff - or creating custom items. Or just... creating.
It's literally how we made Neverending Nights was thanks to the toolset.

Yes, I've never heard of the AOL version of NWN. What on earth is it? All I know of AOL is that it stands for America Online, it used to be an ISP in the old dial-up days, and it used to play a sound-effect ("You've got mail!") every time you got an email, which drove lots of people bananas. Ah, and AOL still exists - but as part of Yahoo!. *shrug* Oh well.

Yes, AOL was an internet provider that in the early days, had it's own usernet type stuff, and also had a "multiplayer" Neverwinter Nights that predates Bioware's (and is far more primitive, but still cool for it's time).

[Rath Darkblade]

I also looked up "CRPG toolset" on DuckDuckGo, and the first link that showed up (to a site called RPG Codex) would've essentially answered your question.

How curious. I did the same on google and found links to tell me what a CRPG is, a link to someone's CRPG project, and links to CRPG questions on Reddit etc. There was even a question about a "CRPG toilet". But nothing to say that. *shrug* Oh well, thank you.

Yes, I've never heard of the AOL version of NWN. What on earth is it?

You could always look up the AOL-hosted version of NWN on Mobygames.

Oh, my ... I'm old enough to remember CGA as well as EGA (and ye olde Fogotten Realms logo), but I've never seen that. However, I do remember the old Eye of the Beholder game, which looks similar graphics-wise, if nothing else.