SHP Forums

T-SHIRT CONTROVERSY
That's ridiculous. I could see there being a problem if the students wore shirts that said "Mexicans suck!" or some such nonsense. I'd agree with the principal in that case.

However, there's nothing wrong with wearing an American flag, especially when it's in the United States! So what if Cinco de Mayo is a holiday? As Rudy pointed out, it's not even a Mexican holiday!

So let's see here... the US created a holiday, that doesn't exist in Mexico, for Mexican-Americans, right? That means the US is in fact doing a favor for those with Mexican heritage. So why would wearing the flag of the nation that created Cinco de Mayo be insensitive? If anything, it's supporting the US in its creation of the holiday.

I hate to sound racist, but why doesn't it surprise me that the principal was Mexican-American?

US FLAG VS MEXICAN FLAG
This reminds me of a news article a few years back from Houston, Texas. Mexican-American students tore down the American flag and raised the Mexican flag instead of it.

Many Mexican-Americans were in support of this action. But here's the catch: as a public institution, that school is financed by the Texas state government and the US federal government.

Even if those students were justified in raising the Mexican flag (which they were not), no one is allowed to fly ANY flag at the same height as the US flag if on the same pole. In other words, if I wanted to place a US flag and a Texas flag on the same pole -- which is what's commonly done in schools -- the US flag MUST be placed ABOVE the Texas flag. So just imagine the reaction to raising a foreign nation's flag not only above, but in place of the US flag.

"I'm not going to apologize. I did nothing wrong," Galli said. "I went along with my normal day.

YEAH RIGHT. These kids weren't being patriotic or individuals - they were being douche-bags. See, unless these kids have a very limited wardrobe, no five people ever show up to school on a normal day, all coincidentally wearing the US flag. They knew it was a Mexican cultural holiday, and they thought it would be funny to see how many people they could piss off in a school full of Mexicans. And now that they're in the spotlight, they're hiding behind the First Amendment and making it sound like the principal is at fault when all he was trying to do was stop a fight from breaking out (anyone who has seen "South Park" might probably recognize this as an Eric Cartman move.)

Datadog wrote:YEAH RIGHT. These kids weren't being patriotic or individuals - they were being douche-bags. See, unless these kids have a very limited wardrobe, no five people ever show up to school on a normal day, all coincidentally wearing the US flag. They knew it was a Mexican cultural holiday, and they thought it would be funny to see how many people they could piss off in a school full of Mexicans. And now that they're in the spotlight, they're hiding behind the First Amendment and making it sound like the principal is at fault when all he was trying to do was stop a fight from breaking out (anyone who has seen "South Park" might probably recognize this as an Eric Cartman move.)

I'll admit it's somewhat odd that those five dressed in American flag attire on Cinco de Mayo. Were these kids looking to tick a few people off? Who knows?

Even if the principal had good intentions, he lost his entire case by enforcing a dress code that does not exist. It's perfectly acceptable to wear clothing with the American flag (or any other flag) on it any day of the week, regardless of any cultural holiday.

Bottom line: you can't tell American students in an American school situated in the United States of America that they cannot wear clothing bearing the American flag or its colors.

DeadPoolX wrote:Bottom line: you can't tell American students in an American school situated in the United States of America that they cannot wear clothing bearing the American flag or its colors.

Exactly. While they probably did have the intention to tick off people, they also made a good strong statement. As a Belgian expat in Slovenia, I greatly respect the Slovene flag while at the same time being proud of my own nationality. Any immigrant should respect the flag of the country where they decide to reside.

There should still be a line drawn at some point. There's supporting your country, but then there's also the means by which you go about doing it. A person can support their own country and still misrepresent it if their intentions are misplaced. When that line gets crossed, it would make sense for someone to step in and use their own discretion in handling the situation.

In this case, I still don't think we're getting the whole story, but the administrators made it clear that fights were going to break out over whatever these kids were doing - and it's not exactly fair to ask a principal to choose between his country and the safety of his students. If he hadn't interfered, an alternate headline could have been "Five American students beaten by Mexican classmates" and then the media would have a real field day.

I guess the old "When in Rome" adage is really what applies here. Mexican-Americans should respect Americans' pride in their country, and Americans should respect that Mexican-Americans take pride in two countries.

Perhaps the principal should have made his motives clear if he were truly concerned about fights and protecting his students. Telling someone that you're not "allowed to do this or that" because you're not "one of them" won't get anyone to listen to you.

I don't even understand the whole "us versus them" mentality of this situation. These Mexican-American students are Americans; in fact, most were probably born in the United States itself. So how does displaying the flag of YOUR OWN HOME COUNTRY show disrespect to you or anyone else present?

Don't discount the possibility of fear of a lawsuit, regardless of how well founded. In trying to prevent one, the principal may have unwittingly opened himself and the school to another one. It's a silly issue that would have probably been best handled by just keeping a watchful eye on it. I do think that Datadog is right, though. These kids are probably assholes that were trying to provoke something, but at this point all we have hearsay evidence of what really happened.

I have to agree with Datadog. It's sort of like if five kids went to school wearing shirts with an upside down cross on Christmas Day... (not that kids go to class on Christmas day... but you can see how they're clearly going for a reaction)...

The Vice Principal’s excuse was that the T-shirts could have started a fight. A mother of one of the flag-bearing students said the boy had at least four other shirts in his closet with flags on them (the one they showed in the article was an Old Navy shirt with a small flag in the middle - NOT a kind of shirt that would draw attention. these were very common in my high school) and the point was made that IF those shirts caused any problem on any other day of the year, then the VP would have good reason to make the kids turn their shirts inside out. And since we don’t know a fight would have broken out on that particular day of May 5th, they can’t tell them to do that if nothing happened in the past, or else it would turn into a case of Minority Report.

Regardless of what the kids’ intentions were (yes, they probably wanted to cause a stir), the principal was out of line telling those students to turn their shirts inside out. If they were to take this to court, the kids would probably win in a heartbeat. Especially since there is no school dress code for Cindo de Mayo.

The main issue is that any “Mexican-American” should not have an issue with anyone wearing an American flag on their shirt if it’s in their own damn country. Regardless if it was Cinco de Mayo, a holiday not celebrated by everyone.

Honestly, I hope someone gets on that VP’s ass for his actions. I don’t care if those kids were being little brats. The VP’s action was in the wrong more than the kids’ actions were.

Jules wrote:The Vice Principal’s excuse was that the T-shirts could have started a fight. A mother of one of the flag-bearing students said the boy had at least four other shirts in his closet with flags on them (the one they showed in the article was an Old Navy shirt with a small flag in the middle - NOT a kind of shirt that would draw attention. these were very common in my high school) and the point was made that IF those shirts caused any problem on any other day of the year, then the VP would have good reason to make the kids turn their shirts inside out. And since we don’t know a fight would have broken out on that particular day of May 5th, they can’t tell them to do that if nothing happened in the past, or else it would turn into a case of Minority Report.

That's my issue as well. You can't proactively prevent a fight -- not without blaming someone for something they MIGHT do later on. There a lot of "mights" and "ifs" in the world and none of them are good cause for acting before the fact.

For instance... I might detonate explosives on and around the Lion's Gate Bridge. I wouldn't, but there's always the chance I might do it, no matter how unlikely. So what should the RCMP do? Arrest me? I haven't done anything yet and there's no evidence I would.

Jules wrote:Regardless of what the kids’ intentions were (yes, they probably wanted to cause a stir), the principal was out of line telling those students to turn their shirts inside out. If they were to take this to court, the kids would probably win in a heartbeat. Especially since there is no school dress code for Cindo de Mayo.

Once again, I agree. There was no prior mention of a specific dress code on Cinco de Mayo. Even if the principal's intentions were good (and I'd like to assume they were), he still violated those kids' rights by enforcing a non-existent dress code on the basis of an inclusive pseudo-holiday.

You might scoff at the "violated rights" bit, but it's true. Students have to sign a contract at the beginning of the school year, stating that they have read and understand the material. Most students don't bother reading it (I know I didn't back then!), but that's the student's fault and not the administration. That means the principal could not make students do something that was not outlined in the contract. Essentially that's adding to and/or breaking the contract with no prior notice to the those whom it would affect.

Jules wrote:The main issue is that any “Mexican-American” should not have an issue with anyone wearing an American flag on their shirt if it’s in their own damn country. Regardless if it was Cinco de Mayo, a holiday not celebrated by everyone.

Exactly.

These Mexican-American students were most likely born in the United States and therefore benefit from the US as a citizen, just like any other American. They have rights and privileges not afforded to them in Mexico.

If they truly identify with a nation they weren't born in or live in over their home country, then perhaps they should move. I'm not touting the "love it or leave it" mantra. I simply don't understand why anyone would want to remain in a country they don't identify with and would rather put it second to a foreign nation.

Jules wrote:Honestly, I hope someone gets on that VP’s ass for his actions. I don’t care if those kids were being little brats. The VP’s action was in the wrong more than the kids’ actions were.

The principal might have had good intentions. Maybe he really thought a fight would break out and in his own perverse way was looking to protect his students.

Whatever his reasons were, he enforced a non-existent policy on five students. Even if you ignore the obvious racial and cultural overtones, his actions still place him in the wrong.

Jules wrote: Honestly, I hope someone gets on that VP’s ass for his actions. I don’t care if those kids were being little brats. The VP’s action was in the wrong more than the kids’ actions were.

You know I absolutely love you. Utterly and completely. But I have to disagree. We all make personal judgment calls. I don't believe he asked these kids to take off their shirts because he found the American Flag offensive. I do believe he thought it was in poor taste, and as a Principal, I am pretty sure (despite what DPX has said), that they can make a judgment call like that, that shouldn't be questioned, if the intentions seem clear.

Now maybe these kids didn't mean to wear these shirts to offend. That's entirely possible. But I can't see a principal being an arse about asking them to turn their shirts inside out, at least for this day.

How hard would it have been to be like, "Hey, all right, Principal. I see your point. I'm cool with that for today."

DeadPoolX wrote: Whatever his reasons were, he enforced a non-existent policy on five students. Even if you ignore the obvious racial and cultural overtones, his actions still place him in the wrong.

I disagree (but don't love you as much as I love Jules, sorry DPX)

Tawmis wrote:We all make personal judgment calls. I don't believe he asked these kids to take off their shirts because he found the American Flag offensive. I do believe he thought it was in poor taste, and as a Principal, I am pretty sure (despite what DPX has said), that they can make a judgment call like that, that shouldn't be questioned, if the intentions seem clear.

Of course the principal can make a judgment call. However, just because he has the authority to make one doesn't mean he was right or acted appropriately.

Why would wearing the American flag be in poor taste? Is the American flag somehow offensive toward Mexican-Americans? If it is, then they need to reevaluate their living situation and perhaps move somewhere else.

The key word in Mexican-American is the the "American" part. That means they are, for better or worse, a part of the American landscape. They are not in Mexico nor do they live in Mexico.

Some might go so far as to say a restriction on wearing the American flag (or some form of it) in an American school on an American-made pseudo-holiday is offensive in of itself. I'd be inclined to agree.

Furthermore, the principal is not the final authority in a school. The school board and superintendent outrank him, as do parents.

How do parents outrank the principal? Well, that occurs in several ways, perhaps the most important being enrolling and sending their child to THEIR school.

Here's a little known secret about public schools: they get money for every student in their school when that student is attending it.

In other words, if you have 100 students, the state pays the school for those 100 students when they are in class. This is primarily why public schools often have strict policies on absenteeism. Even if a student is enrolled in a class and they miss a day of school, the money normally gained by that student vanishes for that day. All schools have provisions for acceptable losses (i.e. "excused absences"), but that's it in a nutshell.

So the parents have a lot of power. That power may act behind the scenes, but it's considered more important to the school district than any principal.

Tawmis wrote:Now maybe these kids didn't mean to wear these shirts to offend. That's entirely possible. But I can't see a principal being an arse about asking them to turn their shirts inside out, at least for this day.

He shouldn't have told them in the first place. Those students were under no obligation to relinquish their national symbol simply to satisfy others.

Look at this way: if Hanukkah or Passover occurred while school was in session (and it sometimes happens that way since the Jewish calendar and the Gregorian calendar are rarely in-sync with each other) and students decided to wear a cross or crucifix during that time period, would I have any right to be offended?

Of course not!

They are wearing a cross or crucifix because it's an important symbol to them and to demand they give up that symbol for my holiday is absurd. The same is true if I wore a Star of David or a Chai during a Christmas party or whatever.

Tawmis wrote:How hard would it have been to be like, "Hey, all right, Principal. I see your point. I'm cool with that for today."

Yeah... like teenagers are known to respond that way.

I think the problem with these kinds of news stories is they don't (and can't) give you the details that are the most important, so everyone has to put their own spin on the events.

It wasn't that they were were wearing the shirts on that specific day that's the big deal, it's HOW they were wearing them. Just like it's HOW the principal dealt with the situation. They don't tell us anything about exact words that were used, body language, intentions behind the actions, etc. Those are the things that give the true meaning to communication and make all the difference in a situation like this.

I can see at least two possible scenarios for each side of the story and, depending on which one I believe, it would change what side I'd take on it.

If the students were purposely wearing the shirts to piss people off and going around with an offensive attitude while wearing them, then I could see the principal's concern and potentially see people getting upset about it.

I could also see that maybe they just felt a bit left out that a big deal was being made about a holiday that they can't participate in and they decided that they wanted to show their own national pride (in a positive way) by wearing the shirts so they'd have something on that day as well. In which case, I don't see a problem with it and I would see people getting upset about it as overreacting.

Who knows exactly how the principal asked them to remove the symbols as well? If he was disapproving and accusatory about it, assuming they had the wost intentions, when maybe they didn't, then they're not going to understand or respond well. They'll immediately be on the defensive and not be open to what he's saying. On the other hand, maybe he was diplomatic about it and they just weren't willing to listen.

Again, who knows? So all that just to say...my opinion is that there isn't enough information to form a definite opinion either way.

All of that to say "I have no opinion." My wife could be a politician!

DeadPoolX wrote: My wife could be a politician!

A politician?! How rude. You sleep on the balcony tonight!