Let's Play Sierra - er, Tsunami - Games - BLUE FORCE.

[Tawmis]

I just beat this for the first time, back in 2014 or so (somewhere on this forum I talked about it) - because I had got stuck on Day 3 (with the dog). Since then I've played it off and on - and when I started my Let's Play Sierra Games Channel, I knew I'd play it for it - even though it's not a Sierra game, specifically - it was a Jim Walls game (and similar to Police Quest) - who'd done Police Quest I, II and III - and then Codename: Iceman.

And having finished Codename: Iceman - and already done Police Quest I, II, and III (still bitter about the rose bug, I am!) - I figured I'd do Blue Force now.

[notbobsmith]

Looking forward to your commentary. I wasn't a huge fan of this, though it's probably the best of the the three Tsunami games that I've played. The other two being the Ringworld games. My main gripe is that there are a bunch of places where you just break into places without a warrant. Not something that should be in a Police Quest type game.

[Tawmis]

Looking forward to your commentary. I wasn't a huge fan of this, though it's probably the best of the the three Tsunami games that I've played. The other two being the Ringworld games. My main gripe is that there are a bunch of places where you just break into places without a warrant. Not something that should be in a Police Quest type game.

Well, keep in mind; he becomes a Private Investigator and as Lyle (his sort of father figure says), "We can kind of break the rules."


But yeah - will be working on the commentary next week (probably not till Thurs - Mon Night is a online game I am in; Tues night is the D&D game I run; Weds I have to pick up the mother in law from the Airport). So unless Insomnia visits (which is always possible) might not be till Thurs!

[Tawmis]

Well, I got up early (an hour before work) - and actually did the commentary.

[Rath Darkblade]

Well, keep in mind; he becomes a Private Investigator and as Lyle (his sort of father figure says), "We can kind of break the rules."

Which is rubbish. Private Investigators need a license from the District Attorney. If a P.I. breaks too many rules, or one rule too flagrantly, the D.A. can revoke the P.I.'s license. Hell, the D.A. can revoke a P.I.'s license any time he sees fit. (Thank you, Raymond Chandler, for portraying the relationship between Private Investigators and District Attorneys more or less accurately).

A PI can break the rules - but only for a little while, and only if it serves to protect his client. A PI must be honest, and smart, and willing to take the consequences. Some of those consequences come from the Boys in Blue, if they are corrupt or violent or just out for a little fun at a gumshoe's expense.

A PI must never commit murder or cover it up. Breaking into places without a warrant is out. Being 'invited' into places ... is morally grey, but probably OK. Drinking a client's liquor without permission, or seducing a client's daughter, is definitely out.

Have I summed it up, more or less? Did I miss anything?

[Tawmis]

Well, keep in mind; he becomes a Private Investigator and as Lyle (his sort of father figure says), "We can kind of break the rules."

Which is rubbish. Private Investigators need a license from the District Attorney. If a P.I. breaks too many rules, or one rule too flagrantly, the D.A. can revoke the P.I.'s license. Hell, the D.A. can revoke a P.I.'s license any time he sees fit. (Thank you, Raymond Chandler, for portraying the relationship between Private Investigators and District Attorneys more or less accurately).
A PI can break the rules - but only for a little while, and only if it serves to protect his client. A PI must be honest, and smart, and willing to take the consequences. Some of those consequences come from the Boys in Blue, if they are corrupt or violent or just out for a little fun at a gumshoe's expense.
A PI must never commit murder or cover it up. Breaking into places without a warrant is out. Being 'invited' into places ... is morally grey, but probably OK. Drinking a client's liquor without permission, or seducing a client's daughter, is definitely out.
Have I summed it up, more or less? Did I miss anything?

It's also - just a game.
And again, he says "kind of break" - didn't say they can always break.
Just like every TV show, PIs always do things they technically can't do.
So, uh, thanks for what PIs can't do - but if I was super worried about how accurate the game was, I would have googled it.

[DeadPoolX]

Also, the regulations around what a PI can and can't do (including whether or not licensing is actually required) can differ between individual states (in the US) and provinces (in Canada). I have no idea how it'd work elsewhere, but in North America it's not standardized by any means.

[Tawmis]

Also, the regulations around what a PI can and can't do (including whether or not licensing is actually required) can differ between individual states (in the US) and provinces (in Canada). I have no idea how it'd work elsewhere, but in North America it's not standardized by any means.

For sure. Laws vary from state to state on so many things.

[Rath Darkblade]

Well, keep in mind; he becomes a Private Investigator and as Lyle (his sort of father figure says), "We can kind of break the rules."

Which is rubbish. Private Investigators need a license from the District Attorney. If a P.I. breaks too many rules, or one rule too flagrantly, the D.A. can revoke the P.I.'s license. Hell, the D.A. can revoke a P.I.'s license any time he sees fit. (Thank you, Raymond Chandler, for portraying the relationship between Private Investigators and District Attorneys more or less accurately).
A PI can break the rules - but only for a little while, and only if it serves to protect his client. A PI must be honest, and smart, and willing to take the consequences. Some of those consequences come from the Boys in Blue, if they are corrupt or violent or just out for a little fun at a gumshoe's expense.
A PI must never commit murder or cover it up. Breaking into places without a warrant is out. Being 'invited' into places ... is morally grey, but probably OK. Drinking a client's liquor without permission, or seducing a client's daughter, is definitely out.
Have I summed it up, more or less? Did I miss anything?

It's also - just a game.
And again, he says "kind of break" - didn't say they can always break.
Just like every TV show, PIs always do things they technically can't do.
So, uh, thanks for what PIs can't do - but if I was super worried about how accurate the game was, I would have googled it.

Sorry. *blush* I realise it's just a game, and when a game character (or a TV/movie/book/whatever character) says "We can kind of break the rules", that doesn't apply in real life. I just thought it was interesting.

I've just been reading mysteries for a long, long time - they're still one of my favourite genres - so I'm aware that PIs sometimes break the rules. (Heck, Hercule Poirot once broke into an apartment). It's not legal, obviously, but he did use it to solve a case of international espionage. Does that make it right? Obviously not. Would he be forgiven by those in charge? Probably, yes.

I'm just curious: are PIs - or the police, for that matter - allowed to do this sort of stuff (e.g. break into places)? I wouldn't have thought so - not without a warrant, anyway!

[DeadPoolX]

I'm just curious: are PIs - or the police, for that matter - allowed to do this sort of stuff (e.g. break into places)? I wouldn't have thought so - not without a warrant, anyway!

No, PIs aren't allowed to break into anyone's home or place of work. PIs don't have many of the protections that law enforcement personnel do, but they also aren't held to the same regulations. In other words, if a PI wanted to interrogate someone they wouldn't need to read anyone the Miranda warning. On the flipside, no one is ever under any obligation to allow interrogation by a PI, so at any time the entire thing could be called off by the suspect, and the PI would have to oblige or risk getting the police called on them.

Police also aren't allowed unless they have probable cause (or a warrant, but in that case they aren't "breaking in"). So a police officer couldn't just kick down someone's door to look around, but if they heard someone yell for help on the other side of the door, that officer could then forcibly enter.

[goatmeal]

Police also aren't allowed unless they have probable cause (or a warrant, but in that case they aren't "breaking in"). So a police officer couldn't just kick down someone's door to look around, but if they heard someone yell for help on the other side of the door, that officer could then forcibly enter.

"Exigent Circumstances" - The three types are Destruction of Evidence, Emergency Aid, and Hot Pursuit.

[Rath Darkblade]

Police also aren't allowed unless they have probable cause (or a warrant, but in that case they aren't "breaking in"). So a police officer couldn't just kick down someone's door to look around, but if they heard someone yell for help on the other side of the door, that officer could then forcibly enter.

Hmm. What about when police break someone's door down? *curious* I haven't seen it happen, but I'm sure it happens. (Yes, it happens on TV police dramas, but I wouldn't go by those). I assume the police must have both a warrant AND a very strong suspicion of a crime before they can do this?

The news occasionally shows the aftermath of so-called "drugs busts" etc., where a door has been bashed in or broken down. I'm sure it happens for more serious crimes, too.

Can a PI get a warrant? I presume it's rare, but can it happen? And if he does, can he enter someone's house and look around?

Well, never mind the warrant. Suppose a PI has a lead on a case, but when he gets there, the door is ajar - and through it, he can either see/smell blood, or see that his lead is injured/dead. Can he come in? In the books, he usually does. In real life - I presume he must call the police, right?

Sorry for all the questions. I'm just curious.

[DeadPoolX]

"Exigent Circumstances" - The three types are Destruction of Evidence, Emergency Aid, and Hot Pursuit.

Thanks. I couldn't quite remember the term.

Hmm. What about when police break someone's door down? *curious* I haven't seen it happen, but I'm sure it happens. (Yes, it happens on TV police dramas, but I wouldn't go by those). I assume the police must have both a warrant AND a very strong suspicion of a crime before they can do this?

I'd imagine it'd be a pretty serious scenario for that, and might involve SWAT. That said, every state is different and even cities run their departments very differently. There's very little standardization among police forces in the US when it comes to procedures, organization, career/rank, positions, classification, etc.

Can a PI get a warrant? I presume it's rare, but can it happen? And if he does, can he enter someone's house and look around?

No, because PIs aren't law enforcement officers. PIs are limited to the same restrictions placed upon any other civilian.

Well, never mind the warrant. Suppose a PI has a lead on a case, but when he gets there, the door is ajar - and through it, he can either see/smell blood, or see that his lead is injured/dead. Can he come in? In the books, he usually does. In real life - I presume he must call the police, right?

In real life, any moderately professional PI with an ounce of self-preservation would call the police as going into a crime scene like that would probably mean the PI gets his license revoked (and that's assuming no official charges are laid down).

Realistically-speaking, everyone has a smartphone (or at least a basic mobile phone) nowadays, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect a PI to call the police in a situation like that.

That said, the greatest amount of work for PIs come from attorneys, not individuals or the police. Naturally, that doesn't make for a particularly interesting movie, TV show, or book. We want a story with murder, surprises, and adventure, not a PI who's taken a job from a corporate entity to prove that so-and-so fraudulently claimed disability compensation.

[goatmeal]

If a criminal runs into his own house and closes the door behind him, the police are not forced to stop and call for a warrant in order to enter the premises ("Hot Pursuit").

Another case would be a if a drug dealer is suspected of attempting to flush a stash of drugs down the toilet ("Destruction of Evidence"), the police can enter to stop them.

And as DeadPoolX said, if police think someone is injured behind a locked door, they can enter ("Emergency Aid").

Of course, these things must all be within reason and must be able to hold up to scrutiny AFTER the fact.

========================================

I watch too many crap TV cop shows with extremely terrible writers that have characters "bending the rules" all the time to achieve the "correct" outcomes, and every couple of episodes you will have some variant of this exchange:

Detective #1: "Here's the location in question. Hmmm, the doors are locked, and it doesn't appear that anyone's home."

Detective #2: "Uh huh."

Detective #1: "WAIT A SECOND! Did you hear that?"

< ...dead silence... >

Detective #2: "I sure did, partner!"

Detective #1: "Good enough for me. Let's go in!"

...And then the two detectives proceed to enter the premises sans warrant, based on some 'imagined' noise or cry for help.

========================================

Another thing that gets me about cop or federal agent shows is the hackneyed trope of "They took down/out one of our own, so it's personal; we REALLY need to work extra hard on this one to catch the culprit!"... which always makes it sound like every OTHER case that DOESN'T involve "one of their own" isn't worthy of such attention, effort, and urgency of them, you know, actually DOING THEIR JOB.

========================================

Lastly, the trope of "Give me the info that I want for which I don't have a warrant, or I'll sic some other heavy-handed, overbearing bureaucratic governmental department on you to make your miserable life even MORE hell!" is one that also steams me...

• Construction sites - Threaten them with OSHA (Federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration) or Federal Immigration
• Manufacturers - Threaten them with OSHA, State and Federal EPA (Environmental Protection Administration), or Federal Immigration
• Restaurants / Food Sellers - Threaten them with the State Health Department or Federal Immigration
• Liquor Stores - Threaten their State Liquor License or threaten them with the State/Federal Revenue Agency
• Gun Stores - Threaten them with the ATF (Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms)
• White-Collar Businesses - Threaten to call the SEC (Federal Security and Exchanges Commission)
• Medical Field (Doctors, Psychiatrists, etc.) - Threaten their State Medical License

The insinuation is that even though the business owner's done nothing wrong in PROPERLY and CORRECTLY asserting their rights, EVERY ONE of these businesses is secretly guilty of something underhanded or cutting corners, or else "why would they relent so quickly after the threat is made?"

The writers aren't smart enough to even ENTERTAIN the notion that the harassment of the inspection process _IS_ punishment for the innocent.

[DeadPoolX]

If a criminal runs into his own house and closes the door behind him, the police are not forced to stop and call for a warrant in order to enter the premises ("Hot Pursuit").

Another case would be a if a drug dealer is suspected of attempting to flush a stash of drugs down the toilet ("Destruction of Evidence"), the police can enter to stop them.

And as DeadPoolX said, if police think someone is injured behind a locked door, they can enter ("Emergency Aid").

Of course, these things must all be within reason and must be able to hold up to scrutiny AFTER the fact.

All of which makes complete sense the moment anyone with half a brain stops to think about it. Then again, if the general viewing audience HAD half a brain...

I watch too many crap TV cop shows with extremely terrible writers that have characters "bending the rules" all the time to achieve the "correct" outcomes, and every couple of episodes you will have some variant of this exchange:

Detective #1: "Here's the location in question. Hmmm, the doors are locked, and it doesn't appear that anyone's home."

Detective #2: "Uh huh."

Detective #1: "WAIT A SECOND! Did you hear that?"

< ...dead silence... >

Detective #2: "I sure did, partner!"

Detective #1: "Good enough for me. Let's go in!"

...And then the two detectives proceed to enter the premises sans warrant, based on some 'imagined' noise or cry for help.

So you've seen Castle too, eh? I'm sure there are other shows that've done this, but I specifically remember a scene with Detective Javier Esposito and Detective Kevin Ryan who pull that EXACT stunt practically word-for-word as you've written it.

Another thing that gets me about cop or federal agent shows is the hackneyed trope of "They took down/out one of our own, so it's personal; we REALLY need to work extra hard on this one to catch the culprit!"... which always makes it sound like every OTHER case that DOESN'T involve "one of their own" isn't worthy of such attention, effort, and urgency of them, you know, actually DOING THEIR JOB.

Another one that's annoying is how everyone acts like they only have ONE case to actively work on at any moment. In reality, the caseload depends on where the detectives are (NYC will generally see more crime on a daily basis than Lincoln, Nebraska), but on TV, our protagonists focus solely on this ONE case for days or weeks entirely to justify the plot of the episode or episodes in a multi-episode story.

Something that relates to this "one case" issue is how in TV shows and movies, detectives always act annoyed if the FBI pick up the case and take over. You'll generally hear some line that goes: "They can't take this case from us, it's ours!" In reality, however, detectives generally have a large caseload so if they can unload some of that work to the FBI, they're usually happy (or at least not annoyed) to do so because they have plenty of other cases that need to be worked on.

Lastly, the trope of "Give me the info that I want for which I don't have a warrant, or I'll sic some other heavy-handed, overbearing bureaucratic governmental department on you to make your miserable life even MORE hell!" is one that also steams me...

• Construction sites - Threaten them with OSHA (Federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration) or Federal Immigration
• Manufacturers - Threaten them with OSHA, State and Federal EPA (Environmental Protection Administration), or Federal Immigration
• Restaurants / Food Sellers - Threaten them with the State Health Department or Federal Immigration
• Liquor Stores - Threaten their State Liquor License or threaten them with the State/Federal Revenue Agency
• Gun Stores - Threaten them with the ATF (Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms)
• White-Collar Businesses - Threaten to call the SEC (Federal Security and Exchanges Commission)
• Medical Field (Doctors, Psychiatrists, etc.) - Threaten their State Medical License

The insinuation is that even though the business owner's done nothing wrong in PROPERLY and CORRECTLY asserting their rights, EVERY ONE of these businesses is secretly guilty of something underhanded or cutting corners, or else "why would they relent so quickly after the threat is made?"

The writers aren't smart enough to even ENTERTAIN the notion that the harassment of the inspection process _IS_ punishment for the innocent.

Well, how else are we to show the fact that there's a criminal layer to everything AND that our protagonist is a tough, street smart cop who "doesn't play by the rules" in a show or movie?

I'm being facetious here, but yeah... in reality any cop who did that would likely get into trouble for it.

That doesn't mean this hasn't happened in the past or that it couldn't happen now, but most cops won't want to risk it nowadays out of concern for their career given the current "F**k the cops!" mentality that's become almost standardized in our society, especially for those who spend way too much time on social media and lack common sense.