Dragon Age II

[Tawmis]

Um... Rogues aren't restricted to daggers. In DA:O it was possible to dual-wield longswords and they can wear any armor they want. Most Rogues wear light-to-medium armor because they don't pump up their strength stat.

There are no armor restrictions for any class. You could have a Mage wear massive armor, but to do so, you'd have to seriously underpower his magic.

I think he means DA2.

[AndreaDraco]

I think Rogues can disarm traps, but like lockpicking, it's an automatic skill based on your cunning.

Exactly. It's only a check based on you Cunning stat.

As for the other skills, like Coercion or Survival, they depend now on other things: Coercion, for example, depens on what BioWare calls "personality," meaning that if you consistent in choosing a particular tone, you can unlock some particular dialogue options that capitalize on that tone. I already found a case or two and it's a nice effect, even if I preferred the old Coercion. Survival, on the other hand, depends always on Cunning, if I'm not mistaken.

As for the Rogues being restricted to daggers, it's not true. Nor is the claim that stealth-based abilities are gone. There are two entire ability trees fully dedicated to stealth-based skills, with plenty of room to customize.

See, that's the strange thing. On one hand it seems that the developers tried really hard to streamline the game (dialogues with companions, inventory, combat), but, on the other hand, there are even more options than before to customize your character, given the chance to enhance single spells/talents.

[Tawmis]

customize your character, given the chance to enhance single spells/talents.

I dunno. I don't like it.

I am boogled by their need to change it.

As for the Rogues being restricted to daggers, it's not true. Nor is the claim that stealth-based abilities are gone. There are two entire ability trees fully dedicated to stealth-based skills, with plenty of room to customize.

Apparently one of those Stealth Trees is called SecuROM. Despite the fact that I got the X360 version - words can not say how utterly shitty I think this VERY misleading move was. I am hoping someone gets up a Class Action Lawsuit against EA/Bioware and drives it through their freaking black, lying hearts.

It was bound to happen. Like it did with Sierra. Where I believed a company could be flawless; then they do one supreme (or several) jack ass moves that make me lose faith. As if all the changes in DA2 weren't enough to shake my faith, this SecuROM move, has put them on the shit list for me.

Pretty much sealed the deal for me purchasing STAR WARS: KNIGHTS OF THE OLD REPUBLIC too. I will NOT give my money to a company that pulls shithead moves like that. No f*cking way.

[DeadPoolX]

As for the Rogues being restricted to daggers, it's not true. Nor is the claim that stealth-based abilities are gone. There are two entire ability trees fully dedicated to stealth-based skills, with plenty of room to customize.

The stealth-based skills in DA2 are all combat-related. Contrast that with DA:O where stealth could be used outside of combat.

Without stealth as a skill in of itself, you can't scout ahead and disarm traps or unlock chests without NPCs noticing. That's what Maia likes to do and it's not possible in DA2.

[Maiandra]

Yes, I was talking about a dedicated stealth mode like DA:O had or pretty much any Fantasy RPG I've played by Bioware. A mode that lets you stay hidden until you deactivate it. From what I understand of the skills (from their description on the Wiki), the stealth is only available for short time during combat as a specific move and not available outside of combat at all.

Regarding SecuROM, it appears that people were getting all whipped up into a frenzy over nothing. It was part of the date release tool, which is made by SecurROM (the company name, not the product name), but is not the same as their DRM utility.

There are a few posts by a BioWare dev here.

[Tawmis]

Why is Stealth a part of Combat? To me that makes no sense. It's far more logical that Stealth be available OUTSIDE of combat. Because it's virtually impossible to disarm traps if mobs are smacking on you. That's utterly useless. I am sure whenever I get around to beating DA2, I will play it with the other characters I have done... Rogue, being one of them (though never done Rogue on XBL, only PC for DAO). By then, should Bioware/EA get their act together and fix things, I am sure Maiandra will have mastered the slaughtered version of the rogue and point out the highlights.

[AndreaDraco]

Tawmis, can be honest? This kind of "I will never buy another product of theirs" crusade seems to me like a bit of overreacting. Like Maia said the developers explained what happened with SecuROM and it's noth what people thought.

As for Stealth, I used it for two things: to sneak behind an opponent and backstab (and this is thus still possible) and to sneak behind a NPC and pickpocket him, and this, unfortunately, is no longer possible.

True, it's disappointing, but when you'll play the game, Maia, I'm sure you'll find plenty of possibilities to customize your rogue.

DA2 shortcomings are others, and I mentioned them, but I don't think it's fair to criticize it for one of the few things it does right.

[DeadPoolX]

True, it's disappointing, but when you'll play the game, Maia, I'm sure you'll find plenty of possibilities to customize your rogue.

I'm sure you can customize your Rogue, but that customization is purely combat-oriented. There's nothing wrong with a Rogue that can kick ass; however, there's more to the class than that. DA2 has effectively removed the ability to be stealthy outside of combat.

Oddly enough, it seems many gamers have no problem with this. They probably don't know how to play a Rogue aside from using the class to backstab or hit enemies using dexterity-based combat moves.

I think the Rogue is often seen as a weaker and less powerful Warrior, which isn't true if you play the class properly. Rogues aren't designed to launch themselves headfirst into battle. Even Warriors, if they're smart, know better than that.

One argument I've always found ridiculous is the "Why should I have to bring a Rogue to lockpick? Give everyone that skill!" What these people are forgetting is DA is a team-based game. That means you need to bring different classes with you and some of those classes have unique skills.

Demanding that every class gets to lockpick is as silly as demanding every class can cast spells. Maia's said before that she's been annoyed that you absolutely have to bring a Mage with you if you want to survive. She won't get spellcasting if she's a Rogue (or a Warrior), which is fair. Spells are unique to the Mage and abilities like stealth and locking are unique to the Rogue.

[AndreaDraco]

Oh, no, DPX, I perfectly agree with you. It's a shame that every non combat-related skill has gone away!

I was referring to what Tawmis said about the customization. While I'm not a fan of the new trees, I was simply stating that they at least offer many customization options

[Maiandra]

As for Stealth, I used it for two things: to sneak behind an opponent and backstab (and this is thus still possible) and to sneak behind a NPC and pickpocket him, and this, unfortunately, is no longer possible.

I used stealth mode a lot more than that. I often used it to explore a hostile area, sending my rogue up ahead of the rest of the party to find out where the enemies were and disable any traps ahead of time. Sometimes I'd even loot the entire area first and then we'd all go in to do the fighting later. I also used it to avoid combat with animals (I recall a specific room full of Mabari that I didn't want to fight, but that had loot I wanted). I used it all the time.

It basically boils down to the fact that stealth mode ensured I was rarely surprised by combat or enemies and now I won't have that option. My tactical advantage as a rogue is completely gone prior to combat. I can't scout ahead at all. No sneaking up and taking out the mage at the back of the enemy group first.

It seems to me that, especially in a game that takes places predominantly in a city with an actual night cycle, it's ridiculous not to have stealth for the rogue AND some stealth-based side quests. Some of the later NWN expansions and mods actually allowed alternate solutions to obstacles with a dexterity check or stealth and gave XP for passing them. Given that, I think the implementation of the rogue in the Dragon Age series has gone progressively backwards, outside of combat.

For me, stealth is an integral part of the rogue character and it changes the focus of the entire game into an action-RPG instead of an RPG. Since I rely on playing a specific type of character, it will be a completely different experience.

I'm not saying that makes it bad game overall, but I know I won't enjoy it as much because of that omission, regardless of whatever bells and whistles they've added to the combat. I love sneaking.

[AndreaDraco]

I understand your playing style. I guess that, being first and foremost a Mage player, I'm not that used to using stealth, but I certainly recall using stealthed Zevran to disable traps, loot chests and the like before starting combat. However, it's not a thing I misses as much as you.

Speaking of things I miss or that irks me, I hate that now, as a Mage, to cast Group Heal, I have to activated a sustained mode beforehand that doesn't allow me to cast any type of aggressive spell. Since I'm building my character to be a pure caster/damager that stands afar from the heat of combat, it's a real hassle to activate Cleansing Aura just to cast Group Heal. And, on top of that, no mage companion can ever learn that spell, since it's part of a specialization that only the main character can take.

So yes, the new Talent system has some major flaws. The only upside is that the upgrade system allows you to enhance single spells that you find particularly useful, without forcing you to take useless spells in the process.

[Tawmis]

Tawmis, can be honest? This kind of "I will never buy another product of theirs" crusade seems to me like a bit of overreacting. Like Maia said the developers explained what happened with SecuROM and it's noth what people thought.

I didn't say I'd never purchase ANY of their products again. I specified Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic - because it's an MMO and will have a monthly cost (of no doubt anywhere from $9.99 to $14.99 a month). I have done away with all MMO's that have a monthly due (as it is, I hardly even play Lord of the Rings Online or Champions anymore, both of which are free).

The fact that the SecuROM is not what it initially appeared to be has me on the fence again, as to whether or not I will try Star Wars.

So yes, the new Talent system has some major flaws. The only upside is that the upgrade system allows you to enhance single spells that you find particularly useful, without forcing you to take useless spells in the process.

To put it plainly, it's utter crap. (And that's being nice).

I have not played DA2 in like 2 days, because it has no draw for me like Origins did. I will go back to it. I will finish it. Just it doesn't have that same pull.

[AndreaDraco]

To put it plainly, it's utter crap. (And that's being nice).

I don't understand this stance, to be honest.

I'm the first to say that DA2 has some major problems, but I can't understand why you hate the new talent system so much

[Tawmis]

To put it plainly, it's utter crap. (And that's being nice).

I don't understand this stance, to be honest.
I'm the first to say that DA2 has some major problems, but I can't understand why you hate the new talent system so much

1. It's clunky. I have to scroll side ways to see all the talents. Why are the talents just not on one page, going down the page? Why do I need to scroll over three times to the right, or three times to the left to reach specific talent trees? Why is it ONE talent tree per page?

2. It's ugly. It looks like it's a talent tree from a 1980 RPG game.

3. They had a great talent tree in DA:O that worked. It was easy. Manageable.

It's not just the talent tree that I dislike about the game though. It's like any movie sequel. When the first one is so great - and then they make the second one - and do everything over the top.

Why are enemies exploding when I hit them with my sword?

Why is my two handed sword as tall as me + about three feet?

Why do the enemies die so quickly that I don't even get a chance to see what I am killing?

Why is the dialogue, which I once valued so much in DAO, dumbed down to "Twilight Level"?

The entire game feels dumbed down. The swords for warriors look like they were taken right out of "Final Fantasy VII." The dialogue feels like it's written for the majority of Twilight fans. The over the top exploding enemies when I cut them seems like they're just going for effect. Running stupid trivial quests, remind me of a VERY poor and VERY bad Dungeon Master D&D game. All the dialogue on the trivial quests when he returns them to people is the same exact dialogue. ("I believe this belongs to you"/"I believe you lost something" - paraphrasing - there's no additional dialogue with these trivial quests and these NPCs you're doing favors for - making it feel even MORE trivial).

I could go on. Easily. But I have to get ready for work.

[DeadPoolX]

In reference to the Mage, I couldn't believe that the basic heal spell takes 60 seconds to recharge. The basic heal spell in DA:O took five seconds to recharge. Big difference.

Honestly, it seems like the Mage has been weakened while the Warrior pumped up. It's a response to DA:O, where Mages were very powerful and Warriors were more or less "meat shields."

The talent tree actually reminds me of Diablo II. Whether that's good or bad depends on your preferences and play style.

DA2 looks very, very rushed. It's basically a beta and we get to pay to test the game out and find bugs. Maybe that's a bit dramatic, but the point is that if EA and BioWare had delayed the game's released and finished it, including in-depth testing, I think it would've turned out a lot better.

That'd also save the development team the hassle of needing to create a ton of patches. I don't doubt some patches would be needed regardless of how finished the game was (DA:O needed several), but the overall outcry and poor reception wouldn't have been as bad.

I can't comment on the story, dialogue or party members since Maia and I haven't even opened the game yet. We want to see what they fix first and if by the end of the month, if the game is still a mess, we'll probably return it.

Although I'd like to play it (the fixed version), I don't want to encourage EA's method of "let's release crap, maybe they won't notice!"