Dragon Age II

[AndreaDraco]

I foresee that we - me, Tawmis, DPX and Maia - will fight over what happens at the end.

Just to say...

I knew it was going to happen

[Tawmis]

I knew someone would have made that example, sooner or later.
No, it's very, very different.
Anders didn't destroy the Chantry and Grand Cleric Elthina just to kill a bunch of civilians. In fact, he did at night, when there were no civilians at all in the building. He didn't do it to murder someone. He did it because it was the only way to achieve the revolution he was dreaming about.

I find it amusing that what Anders did is often equated to terrorism but Robespierre is often hailed as a revolutionary. When he guillotined Louis XVI, no one accused him of terrorism. Certainly, he then degenerated but his first act was one of freedom, not of terrorism.

The American Revolution started in a similar manner.

How do we know no one else was in the Chantry? We only SEE the Grand Cleric. But there's ALWAYS other people in the Chantry when you go through there. So, while the impact was focused on the Grand Cleric, I'd imagine there were others also inside. It's a bit silly to assume she was the only victim. And considering the size of the explosion, and the damage we see after it - all the wood, rocks, etc burning everywhere (essentially forcing you to walk a certain path) - it's safe to say people on the street around the Chantry may have also perished in that massive explosion.

And the thing with terrorists - they rationalize what they're doing. They're not just blowing themselves up for kicks to kill innocent people. They do it for whatever religious purpose they have - and they believe that they will be rewarded in Heaven in the after life by killing these people.

I think the difference is - that, I don't agree that what Anders did had to happen. I think because of his actions, it only enforced the Templars to say, "See, every single one of them is rotten to the core!" (And as it so turns out - the Templars... tended to be right, since the First Enchanter also turned to Blood Magic, and appears to have been the one who helped out for the Lady Killer portion...) But of course, the Templars weren't in the right either - because, obviously Meredith was driven further insane by her "special sword"...

But - Meridth at least, at some point right before the fight - was listening to some reason. The mage I saved from the cave (who later appears at the abduction) was indeed spared, and actually seen outside. Avil or whatever his name was. Anders action only pushed Merideth to the edge, more so, and perhaps pushed her last bit of sanity over the edge.

Would I have sided with the Templars knowing what I know now? Perhaps, because clearly every freaking mage in Kirkwall is involved in Blood Magic. Even the first Enchanter. But then, Merideth wasn't exactly sane herself. I am curious to do a second play through, just to see how it pans out siding with the Templars.

[Tawmis]

I foresee that we - me, Tawmis, DPX and Maia - will fight over what happens at the end.

Just to say...
I knew it was going to happen

I think it's kind of cool though - because you clearly got to see far more of Anders' personality by romancing him. And while you strongly seemed to hate Isabella, I absolutely loved her.

And while you seemed to strongly hate Sebastian, he wasn't my favorite person in the world (only because he seemed to whine so much) - at least neither of us seem to care much for him. On that we can agree.

[AndreaDraco]

I see a huge difference between terrorists and revolutionaries: the first ones do what they do to maximize the civilian casualties, wheres revolutionaries strike at institutions, often trying to spare the civilian population. Terrorists do so just to spread fear, terror, mistrust. Revolutionaries do so to change things, to open other people's eyes, to rebel against the injustice of the system.

Terrorism is a cancer, a vicious circle that leads to nothing.

Revolution is how we have achieved what we are today: from the day the slaves rebelled to the Roman Empire to the French Revolution, from the American Revolution to Spring of Nations in 1848, we always rebelled against injustice to achieve a better world. There are casualties, of course. But they are inevitable.

Oh, and Tawmis, about your doubts about Orsino and the convenience of his blood magic. It's actually revealed that he was a blood mage all along and it was him who provided Quentin, the White Lily Killer, with the means for his necromantic research.

About Isabela. I hate her because she left with the relic. But that was my fault for not befriend him and always ignoring her and never bringing her along.

Anyway, that we are here discussing these things is the proof, in my opinion, that, despite my initial gripes, DA2 fully succeeded.

[Tawmis]

Oh, and Tawmis, about your doubts about Orsino and the convenience of his blood magic. It's actually revealed that he was a blood mage all along and it was him who provided Quentin, the White Lily Killer, with the means for his necromantic research.

Aye. I mentioned that despite everything - even their leader was driven to Blood Magic and apparently helped the Lady Killer. So that's what I am saying - there's neither side that was right. Because of the First Enchanter, your own mother ends up with her head cut off, because that prick gave the guy the ability to work his Necromancy. And yet Meredith, was driven absolutely insane because of the "sword." Was Meredith always so bad? Was she driving Mages to Blood Magic before she got the sword? It would seem so, since there was already hostilities in place, before you head into the Deep Roads. But was Meredith being this way, before she got the sword - because these mages were already doing Blood Magic? There's a lot that we - as the player - don't really know. After all, give people absolute freedom, and there's always those who will take advantage of it. Is this what happened with the Mages? Did they have so much freedom before, that they were doing Blood Magic, thus forcing Meredith to become as strict as she was? I mean, to bring it back to real world - take the Westboro Church folks - they're never breaking any laws - but by all that I hold dear in my hands, I don't know if I was in a position of power - that I wouldn't do something about them too. The one Templar even says, "People ask too much of Meredith, she'd need a spine of iron to deal with everything that's going on here." Perhaps her hand was forced because the Mages had too much freedom here - and it got out of control.

About Isabela. I hate her because she left with the relic. But that was my fault for not befriend him and always ignoring her and never bringing her along.

She did what was in character for her. She looked out for herself since you weren't looking out for her.

Anyway, that we are here discussing these things is the proof, in my opinion, that, despite my initial gripes, DA2 fully succeeded.

Well the thing is - in the end, neither side was right. The First Enchanter is clearly behind Blood Magic and Necromancy (to some degree) - and Knight Commander Meredith was possessed and driven crazy by her sword. I don't think there's any sides to really take when you step back and look at it. The only thing of debate would be Anders' actions.

[AndreaDraco]

Well, I don't think mages were resorting so much to Blood Magic even before Meredith. There's a Codex entry - when you aquire the Staff of Violation from Orsino's body, if I'm not mistaken - that recounts some history of the Kirkwall Circle. And it seems that it's Meredith's yoke that has been driving so many mages to turn to Blood Magic. She a tyrant, whereas Orsino, even if a Blood Mage, never tried to use this art against others -- at least as far as we know.

And just so you know, I think any Blood Magic spell is far worse than everything Anders did. Blood Magic deprives other people of their freedom and it's kind of ironic that oppressed mages would turn to it to become oppressors in their own rights.

Anyway, I'm glad I've sided with the Mages. I'd have preferred if Orsino never turned to Blood Magic to transform himself in an Harvester -- at least not on a mage-friendly playthrough -- but I could never, ever side with Meredith. Oppression of minorities - being them social, cultural, sexual or racial - is one of the things that enrages me the most in the world. As is the fear of what is not entirely similar to us, of what's different from the norm, of what surpasses the boundaries imposed by the society.

And the sword... in my opinion, the lyrium-infused sword only accelerated the process but Meredith always had this madness inside her (I spoiled myself readin her background, which, apparently, she reveals in a templar playthrough) and eventually this would have escalated no matter what.

[Tawmis]

Well, I don't think mages were resorting so much to Blood Magic even before Meredith. There's a Codex entry - when you aquire the Staff of Violation from Orsino's body, if I'm not mistaken - that recounts some history of the Kirkwall Circle. And it seems that it's Meredith's yoke that has been driving so many mages to turn to Blood Magic. She a tyrant, whereas Orsino, even if a Blood Mage, never tried to use this art against others -- at least as far as we know.

And just so you know, I think any Blood Magic spell is far worse than everything Anders did. Blood Magic deprives other people of their freedom and it's kind of ironic that oppressed mages would turn to it to become oppressors in their own rights.

Anyway, I'm glad I've sided with the Mages. I'd have preferred if Orsino never turned to Blood Magic to transform himself in an Harvester -- at least not on a mage-friendly playthrough -- but I could never, ever side with Meredith. Oppression of minorities - being them social, cultural, sexual or racial - is one of the things that enrages me the most in the world. As is the fear of what is not entirely similar to us, of what's different from the norm, of what surpasses the boundaries imposed by the society.

And the sword... in my opinion, the lyrium-infused sword only accelerated the process but Meredith always had this madness inside her (I spoiled myself readin her background, which, apparently, she reveals in a templar playthrough) and eventually this would have escalated no matter what.

I think that you mean you're glad you sided with the Mages, not the Templars?

Now the interesting thing is - you say you could never side with Meredith. And yet, you say Blood Magic is the worse, because it deprives people of their freedom - something that Orsino was doing - because of the end, what he does - and because he's provided the Lady Killer the ability to commit the most vile act of Necromancy - and not JUST Necromancy - but also, one would be safe to assume, Necrophilia - with the head of your own mother. Clearly, both Meredith and Orsino are too far beyond what is "Right" here. In the end, I am glad I was able to kill them both so that Kirkwall could get a fresh start - hopefully with Cullen as the Knight Commander, as he seemed sensible for a Templar; and hopefully someone to step up as a First Enchanter who has some freaking sense in their head. That's the only thing... there's no mages that seem to have an ounce of sense in their head... maybe Avil or whatever the heck his name was, whom I saved from the Blood Mages and was at the abduction thing - he at least tried to stop the girl that smacked him around there, saying Blood Magic was wrong.

[AndreaDraco]

Yes, of course I meant with Mages. I'll correct it

Thing is, I think that Meredith was the cause so many mages, Orsino included, resorted to Blood Magic. She was a tyrant and she forced their hands.

[Tawmis]

In other news, I've started a Rogue playthrough, but so far I'm not liking the new dual-wielding abilities so much. I may start a Warrior playthrough instead.

For your second play through, will you follow some of the same steps? Romance Anders, and Choose the Mages? Or go for different things?

[Tawmis]

Question about the end of the game...

What if you don't help Anders at all? With any of his missions? Including distracting the Grand Cleric? Does he still blow things up? I imagine so, but how would he?

[AndreaDraco]

For your second play through, will you follow some of the same steps? Romance Anders, and Choose the Mages? Or go for different things?

No, I was actually thinking of romancing Fenris or Isabela, I still don't know. As for who I will support I don't know. It's the first time I play with Bethany and I'd like to see where the two siblings relationship is going. If my Rogue Hawke will grow fond of her, maybe I will side with the mages again.

Question about the end of the game...

What if you don't help Anders at all? With any of his missions? Including distracting the Grand Cleric? Does he still blow things up? I imagine so, but how would he?

Yes. He still blows up the Chantry. It isn't explained - as far as I know- how he did. He probably got some of his helpers to distract the Grand Cleric

[DeadPoolX]

There's blame on both sides. The Templars shouldn't have been abusing their power and position while the Mages should know better than to use blood magic. Both sides led to the eventual loss of life and devastation in Kirkwall.

It'd be nice if Mages could become self-governing, but that probably won't happen anytime soon -- especially after what Anders did. Yeah, I know he's rallied other Mage Circles to revolt, but really, what is that going to gain them? Certainly not freedom as they'll have every Templar and Mage hater on their asses from now on.

BTW, have either of you noticed that NO ONE seems to realize you (or some party members) are a Mage? You can walk right in front of a Templar, with staff in-hand and cast fireballs at an enemy. What will the Templar do? Nothing. It's as if he didn't even see you use magic.

[DeadPoolX]

Here are two screen shots I took when my companions decided to step over (or rather, inside of) each other when standing around.

[AndreaDraco]

I had that clipping issue too. Pretty hilarious.

As for the Mages vs. Templars/Chantry, we must not forget that Thedas is full of mages' supporters, especially in Tevinter. I can see the Impurium trying to capitalize on the rebellion set in motion by Anders' actions, as well as Dalish elves or other people who always sympathized with mages and their plight.

Oh, and my Warden will definitely support the rebellion too!

[DeadPoolX]

I had that clipping issue too. Pretty hilarious.

As for the Mages vs. Templars/Chantry, we must not forget that Thedas is full of mages' supporters, especially in Tevinter. I can see the Impurium trying to capitalize on the rebellion set in motion by Anders' actions, as well as Dalish elves or other people who always sympathized with mages and their plight.

Oh, and my Warden will definitely support the rebellion too!

Good point. Maybe Anders' actions will provoke what occurs in DA3. In fact, this sort of thing might be a good way for Morrigan's kid to take control.

Even though my Warden is a Mage, he probably wouldn't support this. He's against oppressing the Mages, but letting every Mage go do whatever they want is just asking for disaster. Some of that mess, I'm sure, the Grey Wardens would have to clean up, so no, he wouldn't be in favor of Anders' methods or actions.