Do you believe in supernatural phenomena?

[audiodane]

I take a biblical worldview, and for that some people really dislike me or think I'm "less educated" even though I've got a bachelors in electrical engineering and design all sorts of complicated electronics every day.

I believe in demons-- the bible (I'm a protestant) is littered with stories about them. I also agree with much of what has already been said here-- so many instances can be easily explained by natural phenomena (and some by natural phenomena that we don't yet understand). But not all of them can. ET's? Sure, why not? To my knowledge the Bible doesn't rule it out. I believe most of everything else "supernatural" (stories of vampires, witches, etc) revolves around things of the spirit world (the ongoing epic battle of good versus evil) going on that we only occasionally experience for whatever reasons.

I've probably done a horrible job of explaining.. oh well.
..dane

[DeadPoolX]

The problem with the Bible (and this has been said before on here) is that it's been translated and rewritten so many times that it's impossible to think it hasn't been changed, at least to some degree. Everyone is subjective when it comes to their beliefs and so it's not unreasonable to believe that those who rewrote the Bible put their own "spin" on it.

Who would've stopped them, right? For centuries the church had more power than anyone or any group, even royalty. Literacy was also difficult to find and so the church, which taught how to read and write to a select few, were able to control others.

The Bible is also quite ambiguous in its overall message. There are passages that support and oppose the same idea. That once again leaves the Bible up to personal interpretation, which can be dangerous in certain situations, even today.

It's also interesting that our current conception of certain entities, like the devil or angels, is much different than the Bible originally detailed. Most of what we imagine the devil or angels look like was due to later interpretation.

Anyway... I've gone completely off-topic.

[Tawmis]

Some of my favorite hauntings include the following:
1. Sarah Winchester's belief she was haunted by ghosts. Her mansion, now referred to has the Winchester Mystery House is a major a tourist attraction in San Jose, California.

I was going to share some pictures of when we went to the Winchester House... but I saw I already did previously - but now said links don't work anymore.

[audiodane]

The problem with the Bible (and this has been said before on here) is that it's been translated and rewritten so many times that it's impossible to think it hasn't been changed, at least to some degree. Everyone is subjective when it comes to their beliefs and so it's not unreasonable to believe that those who rewrote the Bible put their own "spin" on it.

[...]

The Bible is also quite ambiguous in its overall message. There are passages that support and oppose the same idea. That once again leaves the Bible up to personal interpretation, which can be dangerous in certain situations, even today.

[...]

Anyway... I've gone completely off-topic.

Off-topic? This is about supernatural phenomena.. God certainly applies there.

But I'd love to take all of this to PM if this thread isn't appropriate..

Even if we assume it HAS changed, it has changed the least of any document near its age. Newer translations (ev. NIV, NLT) are based on a wider set of available historical documents (dead sea scrolls, etc) than older translations, and therefore are actually becoming MORE accurate, not less. But I don't believe it has changed as much as you think it is (but that is a purely subjective statement, I know).

(Sidebar note: the world-renowned "King James Version" was not written to be foremost an accurate translation as it was to be a beautiful translation [to be read aloud] when it was commissioned. The KJV is beautifully written, but is horribly misunderstood when read without other translations to help you understand what it's saying.)

I will also say that the protestant bible is different than the catholic bible. The catholic bible has books in it that the protest translators did not feel had enough historical evidence to support their continued inclusion. However, the books that they both include are the same between the two (to my knowledge). And of course the Jewish "bible" is the Christian's "old testament." How other bibles may differ though, I haven't studied.

As to ambiguity, I heartily agree that there are passages that seem to contradict one another. However at least for me, the more I study it, the amount of contradiction declines, as my understanding of context and meaning increases. What seemingly contradicts at the top layer gets sorted out as you dive deeper. And I believe it was written that was on purpose (but that's a whole other discussion).

..dane

[AndreaDraco]

While it wasn't the purpose of the thread to discuss religion, feel free to go on. It's certainly interesting.

Being an atheist, I found your opinion of course very different from mine, but also interesting. You are the first Protestant I've ever known... I know it sounds strange but you have to understand that here in Italy the vast majority of the people is catholic. And while I have an historical perspective about the differences between the two (Luthero, Calvin and the like), I know very little about contemporary beliefs of Protestants. I'd inquire but I fear that we may descend into a flame: nothing like religion and politics to heat a forum

[audiodane]

Sorry for the delayed reply, it's been a terribly busy couple of weeks. A couple more coming up, then it should slow down a bit.. but better to have a busy week than a jobless one!

I do know that a majority of "religious" folks in europe are catholic; that's the whole reason the USA made it as a young nation-- everyone fleeing for their own religious freedom. Initially by the (growing number of) protestants who didn't want to be forced under kings and catholic rule, but ironically eventually even some catholics later fled to america for their own religious freedoms.

With that said, I feel both honored and burdened (in a good way) that I'm the only protestant you know. Hopefully I won't be the last. But most importantly, I hope that I reflect as accurate an image of my faith as I can. I will caveat that the Protestant "breakaway" from Catholicism did eventually splinter into a great many denominations. Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, the list goes on and on. While a great many core fundamentals are the same between protestant denominations, there are still differences on interpretation on other aspects.

So inquire away.. PM or public..

..dane

[Rath Darkblade]

While I don't believe in supernatural phenomena at all (so no ghosts, no demons, no werewolves, no aliens etc.) I can understand why some people do. If you take things in perspective and look at the infinite vastness of space vis-a-vis our own position in it, it must be frightening to think that we are all alone in a bleak, uncaring universe. All the same, I'd rather not delude myself by imagining that there's some other entity out there - either benevolent or malevolent.

As to why I don't believe - basically because I've read a lot of history, and I've seen (not personally, of course - simply in my mind's eye) so many people who commit unspeakable crimes against other people, and blame it all on ghosts/demons/werewolves/etc. etc. etc.

This is the same reason why I don't believe in God, whoever he/she might be. (Oh, and before you all start celebrating/flaming me, note that I am a humanist, not an atheist - there's a big difference). I believe that what people do is much more important than what they believe in. There are far too many people out there who claim to believe deeply in God and Jesus and so on, and yet they do not follow Jesus's teachings (e.g. being humble, helping others etc.) I think it is much more important, in the here and now, to help other people than to believe in God.

That is all.

[AndreaDraco]

So inquire away.. PM or public..

I'll try and stay general for the sake of conversation. You see, if you ask a Catholic what does he think of Protestat, at least here in Italy, he'd say that Protestants are too free-spirited when it comes to social issues, say for example homosexuality. I know, in fact, that many Anglican communities ordain openly gay ministers and some others even allow for same-sex marriages. But I've also heard that Protestants are more open toward abortion, euthanasia and so forth.

Is it true? Or it's just anti-Protestant propaganda from the Catholic spheres?

[BBP]

Not speaking for Dane, or Italian catholics now, but the opinion of Dutch churches is highly varying per minister. Last year one Dutch catholic minister refused to give communion to a gay communicant, which led to a wide discussion and a Pink Mass to protest that minister's action.
The true strict followers of the Holy Book, including Leviticus 20:13, live in the Dutch Bible Belt, which runs from southwest to northeast. I know someone from such a community. He's protestant, of the kind that won't watch TV or have christmas trees in the house. But there are strong Catholic communities.
I lived in one when I was six. How they felt about homosexuality I don't know, but considering Dad lived with a woman he wasn't married to they weren't very kind to us. Among others: when I'd won a balloon contest they rigged it afterwards so I came in second place.

After that brief Catholic section I tried to avoid the bible as much as I could.

...Sorry. I've had a lot on my chest recently.

[DeadPoolX]

So inquire away.. PM or public..

I don't know if there are different branches within each individual Christian group. Not Christianity as a whole, but different branches in Catholicism, for instance.

I know that exists within Judaism. I'm what you'd call a Reform Jew in the US and in Canada a Progressive Jew (as opposed to an Orthodox or Conservative Jew). The reason the name is different but function and beliefs are the same is that the word "reform" takes on a political meaning in Canada, whereas it doesn't in the US. At least that's what I've been told.

Reform Judaism is the MOST liberal branch of the Jewish religion. It considers the person first and then the religion. There's no requirement for males to wear a yarmulke (outside of a synagogue), it allowed the first woman Rabbi and will perform marriages between a Jew and a non-Jew, although the latter is not a preferred practice. I don't know about homosexual marriages, but then again, I've never needed to ask.

BTW, the words "yarmulke" and "kippah" mean the same thing: the skull cap that male Jews wear during services at a synagogue. Orthodox Jews have to wear it at all times and I'm not sure about Conservative Jews. Reform Jews only wear it in a synagogue, although you could wear it whenever you want. Why you'd want to do that is beyond since they keep falling off.

[oberonqa]

A good friend of mine discuss the prospect of discovering alien life all the time... and we've both come to the conclusion that any alien life that comes to Earth is coming here for one of two reasons:

1) They are scientists and they want to learn more about the universe

2) They are war-like and they want to expand their territory.

I for one hope they are scientists.... as if they are war-like, they will likely be as destructive as we are... and to put it bluntly, what chance does the human race stand against an alien race that possesses technology that has enabled them to travel through space? I'm not talking ID-4 or something along those lines... as that is a Hollywood fantasy. Any civilization that has developed sufficient technology to propel themselves through the vastness of space would have technology that makes anything we have look like tools from the Stone Age.

And if they were scientists, they would probably have protocols in place to avoid being seen by the denizens they were observing (much like the Federation of Planets had protocols when it came to dealing with pre-warp speed tech civilizations).

That being said, it's pretty safe to say that interstellar space travel would be pretty costly in terms of resources. Most of these so-called UFO sightings where people describe a craft that zips down out of the sky, does a couple of fancy maneuvers, maybe make an alien gang sign in a field of crops, and then take off like a bat out of hell... sounds like the antics of children. And if interstellar space travel is indeed pretty costly when it comes to resources, what is the likelihood of Jim Bob Alien skipping Alien School so he can take a joyride to Earth with a couple of his friends in order to scare the locals? Because honestly.... the majority of these UFO sightings sound exactly like the antics of Jim Bob Alien and his delinquent alien friends. And I don't think Jim Bob Alien would have access to the resources necessary to take a joyride to Earth.

[audiodane]

I'll try and stay general for the sake of conversation. You see, if you ask a Catholic what does he think of Protestat, at least here in Italy, he'd say that Protestants are too free-spirited when it comes to social issues, say for example homosexuality. I know, in fact, that many Anglican communities ordain openly gay ministers and some others even allow for same-sex marriages. But I've also heard that Protestants are more open toward abortion, euthanasia and so forth.

Is it true? Or it's just anti-Protestant propaganda from the Catholic spheres?

A big catholic charge against the various Protestant faiths is that there are in fact many protestant denominations. They claim that because there has been so much "splintering" of the protestant faiths that as a direct result none of them can be the truth. The catholic faith on the other hand claims to have remained consistent throughout its entire history and claims to be able to trace its roots all the way back to when Jesus told Peter that he would build he church upon this rock (Peter). Not everyone believes that either.

These days I think there are more religious organizations who claim to be "Christian" rather than "Protestant" and I think it simply adds to the confusion. But to that end, "if anything Christian is not Catholic, then it must be Protestant" may be just as easy a way to sum it up from the Catholic perspective. However I think it would be widely accepted that the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints (LDS Church, or "Mormans" as most people know them) is its own religious order not affiliated with Catholicism or Protestantism. I believe that there are other religious orders that would fit into that same category (not Catholic or Protestant but just simply self-declared "Christian").

So to bring my answer back full-circle to your question, you can imagine there is no easy answer. So many different groups calling themselves Christian, yet allowing so many things that are clearly spoken against in the bible. How anyone could argue that God ordains homosexual behavior is beyond me. Does God love them? Of course he does! Does he allow their behavior? As much as he allows murder! Do he LIKE their behavior? No more than he does murder! But that's just be believing scripture....

Abortion falls into a similar category. It's probably the most touchy subject because one of the most directly affected groups within the subject of abortion cannot speak for themselves-- the babies. Scientists can argue all day long and twice on Tuesdays when life begins, and how "humane" abortion is or is not. The reality is (within the biblical worldview) that God alone creates life, be it plant, animal, mammal, you name it. The problem is that the biblical worldview clearly states in Genesis that mankind was given charge to rule over and subdue the earth, which means to take care of it and work it and in it. It is clearly okay for man to harvest crops (killing plant life). It is not as clear where abortion or stem cell research lies when looking at scripture. And therein lies the problem. Some interpret life to start at conception, others several months in, some not until physical birth. I myself struggle with this issue because I'm very against killing any life (even murderers-- give them life in prison and make them work hard for the rest of their life to do something meaningful). But I've never had someone close to me murdered. And I've never known anyone directly who had to have an abortion because their own life was in danger if they didn't abort the child either. So my view of abortion has not yet been "challenged" causing me to think more on the matter.

So as to Protestants being "free spirited" I'd say it depends on what religious group you're talking about. Anglicans by I think a wide majority are no longer really considered a group walking within scripture. Ordaining openly gay ministers, etc..

At the same time, Protestants are by definition more "free" in their beliefs because we do not believe that you MUST go through a priest to commune with God and/or receive God's blessings, INCLUDING Salvation and Forgiveness. Catholics scoff at the idea that such important things as Salvation can be had without a Priest! But why should they? Abraham didn't have a Priest-- God called him out to a relationship directly with Him. Jesus poured out healing and salvation freely to those who seek it and believe in Him. So yes, Protestants are more "free" in their faith, but I would say "TRUE CHRISTIANS" foremost seek God and seek to understand (and believe, and FOLLOW) scriptures moreso above all else. I consider myself a true christian above all else.

..dane

[audiodane]

He's protestant, of the kind that won't watch TV or have christmas trees in the house. But there are strong Catholic communities.
I lived in one when I was six. How they felt about homosexuality I don't know, but considering Dad lived with a woman he wasn't married to they weren't very kind to us. Among others: when I'd won a balloon contest they rigged it afterwards so I came in second place.

After that brief Catholic section I tried to avoid the bible as much as I could.

Many protestants still take part in television, birthdays, and christmas. Some do not. Jehovah's Witness's don't take part in birthdays or chistmas as they believe it to be akin to idol worship. Whether or not JW's are Protestant or not is also debatable. Some believe JW's to be a cult (and Mormanism).

As Christ Followers we are called to "Love the sinner, hate the sin." This can be a tall order for us measly mortals, yet it is what we are called to do. For surely all of us have sinned, knowingly or not, and at least once (though if you're like me, a whole lot more than once). We have all fallen short of the Glory of God. We all need forgiveness just the same. While a Christ believer is called to try to become more like Christ (become more perfect in following God's Word [the Bible]), we still fail miserably. We are to help others live up to God's standards as best we can. Insulting them and pushing them away and treating them as "lesser" is certainly NOT the best way to do that.

Some so-called self-professed Christians think they're "better than thou" and as a result mistreat those who have made mistakes. Unfortunately they're just as guilty in their treatment of others as those they treat poorly.

I am so sorry that you had such a poor experience with someone who called themselves a Christian. I assure you that's not what God wants for his children, and invite you to give God another shot someday.

..dane

[audiodane]

I don't know if there are different branches within each individual Christian group. Not Christianity as a whole, but different branches in Catholicism, for instance.

There are certainly branches within the Proestant breakaway from the Catholic church. Whether or not there are "branches" of Catholicism I think is a murkier subject. Certainly Rome wishes to define what is Catholic and all that it entails and require everyone who claims to be Catholic to believe the same thing. It's but a small part of the control that the Vatican asserts. I know for a fact that there are areas of the world that have accepted Catholicism but that have rolled in their own local beliefs as well, simply INCLUDING Catholicism rather than replacing everything they previously believed with it. Whether or not the Vatican would claim those people to be Catholics (maybe needing a bit more prayer, lol) or not I can't speak to.

Judaism has always been interesting to me, but then again I'm a Christian. The basic question is of course, "how can you not believe Jesus was the Messiah?" After all of the old testament (Jewish bible) scriptural prophesies that Jesus fulfilled. And I think it's really neat that in truth, Jesus came first and foremost FOR the Jewish people, God's chosen. Many chose to believe, many chose not to believe. The Pharisees wrongly believed that their "reign" was ending, when in fact Jesus was simply coming to expand their role to bring Salvation to the world including Gentiles (non-Jews). This of course it just my belief-- I certainly love my Jewish brethren. I mean, they're God's chosen after all... a pretty cool circle to be in, I'm sure!

Well that's enough typing for now. Kids' "quite time" is almost over and my chance of getting anything more than this written are drawing quiet slim by the second. Hopefully I'll be able to come back to this next time without such a delay. I'm wrapping up one project and work and just kicking off another (two or three more, actually), so it's pretty busy right now.

cheers all,
..dane

[Collector]

These days I think there are more religious organizations who claim to be "Christian" rather than "Protestant" and I think it simply adds to the confusion. But to that end, "if anything Christian is not Catholic, then it must be Protestant" may be just as easy a way to sum it up from the Catholic perspective. However I think it would be widely accepted that the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints (LDS Church, or "Mormans" as most people know them) is its own religious order not affiliated with Catholicism or Protestantism. I believe that there are other religious orders that would fit into that same category (not Catholic or Protestant but just simply self-declared "Christian").

It would not be unreasonable to call any denomination that has its roots back to the Reformation as Protestant, but the Church of England comes from a different split with the Church of Rome and so, then too, the Episcopalians and thereby Methodists. Yet most would call these Protestant, as well. You may well have a point about the Mormons and some of the other more modern "flavors" of Christianity. The Mormon church was more of an invention of the 19th century than arising out of an specific tradition.