Adventure Games. My Thoughts Of Late.

[Tawmis]

So... it began with GRAY MATTER. I started playing it, loved the story that was developing. Already, right off the bat, an interesting development and hook. Interesting that it had a female lead (an idea I have always loved, which is probably why I love KQ4 so much). But somewhere along the lines,... it faded. Like I had no interest to continue and really fight my way through puzzles. Then recently I got the digital download for my KS backing of Leisure Suit Larry: Reloaded. And I began playing, and enjoyed the background scenes (and sounds), and general feel. Lots of new jokes. But as soon as I got the password, and got the remote and discovered the battery situation - and went to the available areas, and looked around real quick - I stopped.

Like my patience for doing these is gone. I can't explain it. Anyone else feel this way? (Side note, other games, such as Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Neverwinter, Batman: Arkham series, Gears of War, etc - still hold my interest). So it's not all games. Just adventure games that... dare I say it... require me think.

(Oddly I can still play old Sierra games, which I do from time to time, just to reach a certain point for boredom's sake, but I think that's because I remember most of the puzzles)...

[Collector]

Perhaps because you are mentally drained after work?

[Tawmis]

Perhaps because you are mentally drained after work?

That's entirely possible. Perhaps working on people's computers makes it so when I go home I don't want to try to fix Larry's problem, or the character from Grey Matter... but... um, apparently shooting my way through aliens is all right. (Not sure what that says...)

[envisge0ne]

Well, I won't speak for Tawnis not wanting to "think". I understand that. Sometimes you want to play a game and not have to put much energy into it. People often want to play games to relax. When you have to concentrate and think to solve a puzzle, it can get irritating and you want to just turn it off. I've been there many times myself.

I noticed that I don't have a lot of patience when I come across a difficult puzzle anymore. I used to keep playing the game for hours until I solved it. Now if I run into a puzzle I can't immediately solve, I get irritated and quit the game. Then I'll go back to it later when I've convinced myself I'm ready to give it my full attention. But I won't keep trying for hours anymore.

On a side note, however, I have noticed a trend with a lot of younger players. Most don't like to try to think at all anymore. They just get a walkthrough and play through the game. They don't put any serious effort into trying to solve the problems themselves. I often read questions from younger players that start off with "the walkthrough says I need to do this...". And, I sometimes feel that attitude translates to there over all way of looking at real problems. They don't want to try to figure it out on there own, or learn something new. They just want someone to tell them what to do, and hold there hand through the whole process. But maybe I'm just being to cynical

[DeadPoolX]

Like my patience for doing these is gone. I can't explain it. Anyone else feel this way? (Side note, other games, such as Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Neverwinter, Batman: Arkham series, Gears of War, etc - still hold my interest). So it's not all games. Just adventure games that... dare I say it... require me think.

I feel that way a lot. I've noticed that my level of patience for games has gone way down from when I was a kid. I'm entirely sure why, as I always thought we grew more patient as we got older.

Perhaps games just aren't that important anymore? Maybe we're tired of repetitive tasks? For all I know, it could be as simple as we just don't have the same amount of time to devote to games.

In your case, with LSLR, the problem might be you've played the original (EGA and VGA) a bunch. I know you like the old Sierra games and you've even stated you still have patience for them, but maybe that's more about nostalgia than anything else. LSLR, while based on a much older game, is a new product and perhaps the nostalgia aspect didn't kick in, so it seemed lacking.

On a side note, however, I have noticed a trend with a lot of younger players. Most don't like to try to think at all anymore.

Modern games don't encourage players to think much at all.

Most games today are extremely linear, filled with quicktime events, offer little re-playability or choices, tons of hand-holding and checkpoint saves. None of these encourage the player to think beyond getting from Point A to Point B.

Granted, some genres aren't like that (such as RPGs), but the vast majority of the market is saturated with first-person and third-person shooters, many of which have become almost as linear and non-interactive as old FMV titles.

[Tawmis]

Well, it's comforting to know I am not alone here.
When you're sitting on an adventurer gaming forum, and some of the new adventure gaming games (great English there, Tawmis!) that are coming out aren't holding my interest... I worry. Wondered if it was just me. Of course, having said that, I did just back Jim Walls' game "Precinct (and you can too, by sharing this link I made: http://tinyurl.com/fundprecinct )... So I still have the Pinkerton games to look forward to, as well as SpaceVenture, and Hero-U and now Precinct... all of which I donated to. That's a lot of money being thrown at adventure games for a guy who is having difficulty staying on track playing adventure games!

[AndreaDraco]

For me, it's a part of a general trend: the last game I played start to finish and even began to replay was Dragon Age 2. After that, I thought Skyrim could keep me busy for hours, like Oblivion did, but after a few days of playing I got into my postgraduate degree and after that I had - and still have - very little time to play games, mainly because I prefer to use my free time to see my boyfriend, quite obviously, and to read (yes, even after a day already spent reading! ) or watch the tv series I follow (right now: classic Doctor Who, The Sarah Jane Adventures and Orphan Black). Point is: games fell a bit behind.

This doesn't mean that I don't play anymore. For example, a couple of months back I reinstalled Vampire: The Masquerade. Bloodlines, which I played back then but never finished due to the insane amount of bugs, and I enjoyed it greatly. Superb writing, superb story, and for a fan of the pen-and-paper roleplaying game like me it really is a blast.

On the contrary, when I tried to play through adventure games, like Moebius for example, I found them clunky and sluggish. I've discussed the thing on Facebook with Simo, for example, and Ingmar, and I realized that the last adventure game I really and thoroughly enjoyed was Dreamfall, and that was because the narrative wasn't bogged down by arbitrary puzzles and menial tasks like bring item A to B, rinse and repeat. And then, thinking about which adventure games I really love, I realized that my favorite adventure, The Beast Within, is likewise very light on gratuitous puzzles (except for the one we all remember, involving a cuckoo and a plant). And then: other than adventures, what games I liked recently? Well, apart from Bioware rpgs, I really liked Adam Wake, apart from the repetitive combat, and especially L.A. Noire, which is an adventure game at its core - talk to people, collect item, combine them, solve the mystery - but understands that the important part is the story, and not the Tower of Hanoi puzzle you must solve in order to advance (and that's why one of the puzzle solution of Zork Grand Inquisitor is to this day one of my favorite).

Point is: I have little time and I prefer to do other things than play games, but if the right game comes along I'll gladly find time to play through. As long as we are on the same wavelength: great story, great storytelling and a gameplay that doesn't hinder the flow of the narrative.

[Datadog]

Games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age shouldn't be able to bore you too easily since they keep throwing feedback at you. You run into the forest to kill werewolves, and along the way you run into half a dozen side-quests. And all of them are easily accomplished if you take the time to run over to a map point, kill a dragon, and collect the golden fleece. The whole time, you keep telling yourself you'll get right back to the werewolf thing after these messages. These games are designed to engage you on a regular basis with new enemies to fight, new locations to unlock, and so on.

Adventure games on the other hand, challenge the other part of your gaming brain. You'll get stumped and your brain will stop receiving feedback. No more rewards, no more instructions - just you trying to solve the mystery from your end. The reason you're not getting into "Grey Matter" or LSL:R is probably because you've grown accustomed to being kept busy. I remember how collecting Riddler trophies in Arkham City took up a whole weekend for me last year.

and especially L.A. Noire, which is an adventure game at its core - talk to people, collect item, combine them, solve the mystery - but understands that the important part is the story, and not the Tower of Hanoi puzzle you must solve in order to advance

I'm playing that one right now and it really is an adventure game at heart. It has a way of keeping the story moving forward fast enough through its investigations alone.

[BBP]

Adventure games, recent ones, have gotten so extremely menial. LSL1 was really difficult and took months to finish, with all the help you could get from colleagues and friends. With Gray Matter and LSL: Reloaded, it's as if the game authors want to make sure that everybody is able to finish it, and in doing so, forget the puzzles. I love good story lines as much as Andrea, but if all I wanted was a good storyline, I'd throw away my games and use the shelfspace for more books.
My point: if you want to make a game, put games in it! That's the only thing that could make a game more entertaining than a good book or film.

Tawm and Andrea: don't worry. You've just discovered that a game is a leisure product and that, by playing it, you have to spend leisure hours that you could also use to cuddle your sweetheart or read a good book.

The rest is a bit of a rant, so I'll put that in small font. Read at your own risk. Oh, and it has spoilers.

Now that I'm a more experienced gamer, I'm put off a lot easier. In both Laura Bow games, things got too incredible, for instance with corpse disposal. I quit Urban Runner quickly because the first puzzle was too stupid. I quit Lost In Time within the first segment of a game, thinking "ew! Sci-fi!"
What puzzles were there in Gray Matter? Liked the story, looks pretty, nice music, involves several of my hobbies... but the puzzles are so blatantly obvious you don't need to think until level 8.
LSL1 Reloaded? Doesn't shout the solution as loudly in your face as I thought, considering how my father is still stuttering on it (he's earned over 4000 dollars on the slot machines, not sure if I should tell him that he's got more than enough for now). Maybe it's because I've started to pick up on how adventure gaming works, by recognizing hints more easily. Recalling the issues I had playing LB though, I doubt it.

Currently I'm working on an LSL6 script. It's got bashed by a lot of people here for being politically incorrect and having no story line, but it's got taxing puzzles that kept me entertained: every time I played it,I got to advance just a little. In total I spent two weeks on it. Reading the script makes my fingers itch: that there are numerous ways to solve puzzles you can wet the washcloth in the sink in your bathroom or in the kitchen sink, but also in the pool, using rusty water, by peeing on it, by wetting it in the beer cooler in the Employees Only, or even by soaking it in beer. Also, the filing of the key, jamming the toilet, getting a towel, lighting a match, cooling the washcloth, and if what I read today applies, you can also lube the piston with lube from Rose. Take THAT, Gabriel Knight 2 with your loborious fetch quests and your relying on Supernatural Ooga Booga and your plothole that's so large you needs an opera to fill it!
(OK that's cruel)
Point is that they're all very valid solutions to the problems posed. It's not like, say, the puzzle of Urban Runner where you can't break down a wall with a fish hook, but you can break it down with a nail file. It also has a vast amount of enjoyable exploration: many objects can be combined to make you smile. Oh, and let's not forget the fun with the hand and unzip icons. I'll forgive them for Gary, the Most Annoying Male Human Character Outside The Legend Of Kyrandia Series.

Good puzzles don't have to interrupt a story line. My favourite in that respect can be found in Under A Killing Moon, where you have to get a cork out of a vase you can't pick up and turn over, by pouring water into the vase. Very elegant, it's just a pity you need the cork's wire to break open a locked drawer to get a shoelace, while there's a camera in an unlocked drawer.

[Tawmis]

My point: if you want to make a game, put games in it! That's the only thing that could make a game more entertaining than a good book or film.

Well, I think part of the problem, is adventure game designers, are writers first and foremost. "Back in the day" (as they say), you couldn't really do much with text and story in the old Sierra games. You could get a pretty basic story - but nothing with characters who have strong, different personalities that stick out. These days, with how far advanced computer games have become, adventure games are crammed with stories - because I think that's what adventure game designers really want. They want to create an interactive story. So the story comes first, then the puzzles are retro-fitted into the game, where they can be. Because other than the one cat-stache puzzle, GK to me was never that hard. I don't recall ever needing a hint book or anything. Sometimes I'd have to sit back and think about it for a day or two, but I'd eventually figure it out relatively easily. But then GK was so full of story, lore, and great character development. Puzzles? Not all that great. (And I was fine with that, to be clear!) GK1 is still probably near the top of my list for ultimate Sierra games.

As for your rant... I will make it easier than making it tiny and put it in spoilers...

I can't speak for Urban Runner and such - but Laura Bow, I have to defend. The thing with Laura Bow (more so the first one than the second one), there wasn't required amounts of things to do. You could skip a lot of things, and trigger the next hour to pop up. It's just the more you discovered, the clearer (hopefully) your choice is when it reaches the end of the game as to who does what. That was something I liked about Laura Bow and thought it gave it a lot of replay value - to find other clues and hints, listen to other people's conversations, etc - to piece the entire thing as it was intended to be. (I am pretty sure I still never got everything that was stuffed into that game in terms of the mysteries and conversations and small clues throughout the area). The first Laura Bow is something I'd say to go back to, and give it another try and ask for help - because like GoldRush {which is one of Sierra's most incredible games, IMO, back then}, there's so much to it that it's fun as it unfolds!)

[BBP]

LB1: I simply can't believe that Lilian would be physically able to drag all those corpses away from the murder scene to wherever Laura finds them, wait for Laura to find them, and then drag them all back to the chute. Not my only issue but it's the biggest one. In LB2 there's no point whatsoever to moving Pippin Carter's body into the armor: let alone the fact it would cost hours and take a tackle to lift up the body, and that it would be extremely noisy. Not the only issue I had, but it's the one that made me stop playing it in the first place. They're mystery games, not horror games. In a horror game it's just about the shock effect, but when you're solving a murder you need to take such practicalities into account.

GK is a matter of opinion. GK2 is easy as pie, but the other two? Then again it might be because I was a highly novice gamer. Or maybe you're a really really good gamer and there's nothing out there that can tax you anymore.

[Tawmis]

Or maybe you're a really really good gamer and there's nothing out there that can tax you anymore.

Getting up and remembering my name most days taxes me.

It could be, as you said, you were a novice gamer; where as I had (being the old man that I am), already been playing Sierra games since KQ1 initially came out. (My best friend at the time's father was HEAVILY into computers and the main reason I got into it). So he had showed us KQ1, because it was revolutionary. Not only did it have graphics, but you could move the character around items like trees! So this old man, that is me, had already adapted to what to "expect" in a Sierra game. (Which is funny, because GK2 was more difficult to me, than GK1 was! But then the FMV games were more difficult for me, like Phantasmagoria which I played with friends). Other games that were difficult for me were games like Shivers and Lighthouse. My brain couldn't adapt to how that played. (Myst, while it almost killed my sanity, I loved). Same could be said for 7th Guest and 11th Hour (played those with the same friends I played Phantasmagoria with). Loved the games, but they came across as very difficult.

[BBP]

That's a difference. I did play GoldRush and LSL1 not long after they were released, but back in the day my knowledge of the English level was, although proficient for a 10-year-old non-native speaker, hardly sufficient to play a typing parser game. (Come to think of it, my English still isn't good enough for that. ) What I did do at a young age and continue to do a lot because it's awesome, is solve logic puzzles, so I could make my way through Shivers and the Trilobyte games without much difficulty. It comes to the point where I get dulled if I enter a game and see they couldn't think of a puzzle, so they put in Towers Of Ha-Noi. Or peg solitaire. Or a slider. Especially sliders since they are the easiest puzzles if you know how to do them. Except for that cursed one in 11th Hour which can't be solved 50% of the times.

[Tawmis]

(Come to think of it, my English still isn't good enough for that. )

I beg to differ. Your English (at least in the form of writing) is better than most "Americans."

What I did do at a young age and continue to do a lot because it's awesome, is solve logic puzzles, so I could make my way through Shivers and the Trilobyte games without much difficulty. It comes to the point where I get dulled if I enter a game and see they couldn't think of a puzzle, so they put in Towers Of Ha-Noi. Or peg solitaire. Or a slider. Especially sliders since they are the easiest puzzles if you know how to do them. Except for that cursed one in 11th Hour which can't be solved 50% of the times.

LOL! If you can figure out Shivers and most of the Trilobyte games, you've got more wisdom than I do. (Well, okay, granted, that doesn't surprise anyone here, right?)

And as for the Laura Bow games - (read it now, previously answered on my mobile phone, which "highlighting" the spoiler space doesn't work I discovered! ) - I can definitely see your view. That specific aspects of the game were defying what you defined would be logical based on the game elements. I can respect that, for sure.

[BBP]

Thanks Tawm, lovely compliment,but my English will always work in a different way. When I write, I tend to think in Dutch first, then translate it back. That makes it hard at times to find errors that are specific of Dutchmen. For example, my GK1 Companion starts with "you crawl into the skin of", which is a very literal translation of a Dutch idiom. Those constructions are surprisingly hard to detect, unless they're blatantly obvious.
The problem with text adventures is sometimes, combined with pixel graphics, I just can't tell what it is. Recently I suffered that with LB1 board in the toyhouse (it didn't recognize "sign" and I couldn't think of another word). The most annoying games for that are the Hugo's House of Horrors series. Eventually I gave up verb guessing at the bit with the oaf pushing those buttons in the lab room. My productive knowledge of the English language is much less than yours: there's a limited amount of synonyms for "say" that I can come up with on my own in a reasonable time. The word I needed was "tell", but the Dutch word you'd use is "zeg", which comes from the same root as "say", and so you keep on conjuring commands with "say" that don't work.