A Return to the Silmarillion.

[Tawmis]

I bought this beast of a book, eons ago (early 80s?) - and made... SEVERAL attempts to read through it.

And I've never finished it. Ever. Because the formatting in which it's written... the millions of names of peoples, beings, places (some of which are "pre-Middle-Earth") is... insane. In the first few pages, without much context or development, about 8 names are thrust upon you - then describing how they're create another six different things... and...

Well, needless to say, the sheer chaos of it has always prevented me from ever finishing it, despite so many attempts. (The first story, if you will, is basically a retelling of Tolkien's version of the Bible in some ways with Ilúvatar, who is "God" and he created the Ainur, who are angels, and one of the Ainur named Melkor is envious and jealous and seeks to have everything for himself, is easily a reference to Lucifer)... and it just spirals from there.

So, in the Lord of the Rings RPG Official Discord, I was talking about my attempt - yet again - to read this, having re-read The Hobbit, and the Lord of the Rings trilogy this year... and have Tolkien's other books that I want to read - but I wanted to get over the toughest hurdle I could never get past, which is the Silmarillion...

And someone on the Discord server pointed me to this on reddit - to help "keep track of all the names and their relations" - and.... just looking at it reminds me of the hurdle... but the person who made this did an insane amount of work that I can't help but appreciate... I know Rath, you finished it and BBP even did a paper on it (I knew we talked about the book before on here, I thought I had a previous thread... but we talk about it several times in several different threads)... so figured I'd make one for the book itself and share this person's work on reddit...

[BBP]

You roo Rath? I wrote a paper on it too for my music studies

Seriously, that family tree is insane!

[Tawmis]

You roo Rath?

Doh, I said Rath - but I had meant you, BBP.

Fixed the original post.

I wrote a paper on it too for my music studies

Interesting - did you do it for your Music Studies because of the creation of the original characters, using music?

Seriously, that family tree is insane!

It is. And that's been my struggle.

[BBP]

haha yes. I had a subject called Harmony of the Spheres(Musica Universalis) - basically, from ancient Greek times until pretty much the 1900s, people believed that the planets made sounds as they were gliding through space. There are still some people who believe that but now that we know about space being a vacuum, that idea's been put to rest. I had to write an essay about a work and Harmony Of The Spheres and chose Tolkien.

It wasn't terribly earth-moving at any rate (badoom ching) and I don't think I still have the essay.

[Tawmis]

haha yes. I had a subject called Harmony of the Spheres(Musica Universalis) - basically, from ancient Greek times until pretty much the 1900s, people believed that the planets made sounds as they were gliding through space.

I mean, it is a beautiful idea.

There are still some people who believe that but now that we know about space being a vacuum, that idea's been put to rest.

I wouldn't say it's put to rest. There's still people who also think the world is flat.

I had to write an essay about a work and Harmony Of The Spheres and chose Tolkien.
It wasn't terribly earth-moving at any rate (badoom ching) and I don't think I still have the essay.

Bummer, was going to say, I would have loved to have seen (at least a sampling). I think it's really cool that you pulled from The Silmarillion - considering the struggle I have trying to get through this damn book. It's like watching someone do something incredible with something you're simply not able to do.

I did appreciate the earth-moving pun, as well.

[Rath Darkblade]

Why actually, yes - I did read (and finish) The Silmarillion. (I just called it The Silma-Silly-One).

I agree, there are way too many names and things. So to keep simple, I just remembered five names: Illuvatar, Ainur, Morgoth, Beren and Luthien. (There are way too many other important ones for sure, but those are the super-important ones!)

[Tawmis]

Why actually, yes - I did read (and finish) The Silmarillion. (I just called it The Silma-Silly-One).

I agree, there are way too many names and things. So to keep simple, I just remembered five names: Illuvatar, Ainur, Morgoth, Beren and Luthien. (There are way too many other important ones for sure, but those are the super-important ones!)

Fair, since Melkar becomes Morgoth (and has been quite significant).

[Rath Darkblade]

Why actually, yes - I did read (and finish) The Silmarillion. (I just called it The Silma-Silly-One).

I agree, there are way too many names and things. So to keep simple, I just remembered five names: Illuvatar, Ainur, Morgoth, Beren and Luthien. (There are way too many other important ones for sure, but those are the super-important ones!)

Fair, since Melkar becomes Morgoth (and has been quite significant).

Is it possible to compare Melkor/Morgoth with Loki? *wonders* After all, the wars of the First Age are possibly what Loki would have done in Midgard, if he had been able to.

Also, Morgoth is banished by the Ainur and chained beyond the Door of Night in the Timeless Void. (Loki's fate is similar).

Also, Christopher Tolkien added to the Silmarillion that at the End of Days, Morgoth would break free, which would start the Dagor Dagorath ("Battle of Battles"), in which Middle-Earth would be destroyed and made again. This is very similar to Loki's role in Ragnarok.
================
Another question about Morgoth -- quoting from the LOTR Wiki entry on Morgoth:

"I am the Elder King: Melkor, first and mightiest of the Valar, who was before the world, and made it. The shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will. But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death."
—Morgoth to Húrin, The Children of Húrin, pg. 64

This is curious. Melkor had nothing to do with creating Middle-Earth; it was done through the Vision of Illuvatar and the Music of the Ainur.

Finally, it's also significant that Melkor calls himself "The Elder King", since that title properly belongs to Manwe, leader of the Ainur, King of the Valar, brother of Melkor, and Lord of the Air.

[Tawmis]

Is it possible to compare Melkor/Morgoth with Loki? *wonders* After all, the wars of the First Age are possibly what Loki would have done in Midgard, if he had been able to.
Also, Morgoth is banished by the Ainur and chained beyond the Door of Night in the Timeless Void. (Loki's fate is similar).
Also, Christopher Tolkien added to the Silmarillion that at the End of Days, Morgoth would break free, which would start the Dagor Dagorath ("Battle of Battles"), in which Middle-Earth would be destroyed and made again. This is very similar to Loki's role in Ragnarok.

Tolkien passed before finishing his notes for The Silmarillion... but it's very, very, very clear he was borrowing/inspired by several different things... because the whole Ilúvatar and the creation of the "thought" to make music, and one of them being so jealous and envious, and living in shadow, felt so much like God and Lucifer (Melkor).

But even Wikipedia mentions all the "influences" that the Silmarrillion seems to embrace...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Silma ... Influences

The Silmarillion was influenced by many sources. A major influence was the Finnish epic Kalevala, especially the tale of Kullervo. Influence from Greek mythology is also apparent in the way that the island of Númenor recalls Atlantis,[T 24] and the Valar borrow many attributes from the Olympian gods.[15] The Valar, like the Olympians, live in the world, but on a high mountain, separated from mortals.[16] The correspondences are only approximate; the Valar are also influenced by Norse mythology, with characteristics resembling various of the Æsir, the gods of Asgard.[17] Thor, for example, physically the strongest of the gods, can be seen both in Oromë, who fights the monsters of Melkor, and in Tulkas, the physically strongest of the Valar.[18] Manwë, the head of the Valar, exhibits some similarities to Odin, the "Allfather".[18] Tolkien also said that he saw the Maia Olórin (Gandalf) as an "Odinic wanderer".[T 25]

The influence of the Bible is seen in the conflict between Melkor and Eru Ilúvatar, a parallel of Lucifer's with God.[19] Further, the creation and fall of the Elves parallels the Genesis creation narrative and the Book of Genesis' fall of Man.[20] As with all of Tolkien's works, The Silmarillion allows room for later Christian history, and one draft even has Finrod speculating on the necessity of Eru's eventual Incarnation to save mankind.[T 26]

Verlyn Flieger sees the influence of medieval Christian cosmology especially in the account of the creation of the universe as the manifestation of a sort of song sung by God with which the angels harmonise until the fallen angel introduces discord. St. Augustine's writings on music, as well as the extensive medieval tradition of the divine harmony—more familiar to us today in the notion of the "music of the spheres"—served as bases for this telling of creation.[21]

Celtic influences were of several kinds. Dimitra Fimi has documented the influence of Celtic mythology in the exile of the Noldorin Elves, borrowing elements from the story of Irish legends of the Tuatha Dé Danann.[22] Welsh influence is seen in the Elvish language Sindarin; Tolkien wrote that he gave it "a linguistic character very like (though not identical with) British-Welsh ... because it seems to fit the rather 'Celtic' type of legends and stories told of its speakers".[T 27]

Another question about Morgoth -- quoting from the LOTR Wiki entry on Morgoth:

"I am the Elder King: Melkor, first and mightiest of the Valar, who was before the world, and made it. The shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will. But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death."
—Morgoth to Húrin, The Children of Húrin, pg. 64

This is curious. Melkor had nothing to do with creating Middle-Earth; it was done through the Vision of Illuvatar and the Music of the Ainur.

I would disagree, about Melkor having nothing to do with creating Middle-Earth.
The book specifically talks about how the other Ainur used music to shape and create the world, and Melkor kept messing with it, and changing it...

It's the first few chapters of the book - how when one of the Ainur did something, Melkor did something to mess up (like the mountains being jagged, from what I remember, is because Melkor messing with the creation by one of the other Ainir, whose name slips my mind)...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmology ... egendarium#

The created world, Eä, includes the planet Arda, corresponding to the Earth. It is created flat, with the dwelling of the godlike Valar at its centre. When this is marred by the evil Vala Melkor, the world is reshaped, losing its perfect symmetry, and the Valar move to Valinor, but the Elves can still sail there from Middle-earth. When Men try to go there, hoping for immortality, Valinor and its continent of Aman are removed from Arda, which is reshaped as a round world. Scholars have compared the implied cosmology with that of Tolkien's religion, Catholicism, and of medieval poetry such as Pearl or Dante's Paradiso, where there are three parts, Earth, Purgatory or the Earthly Paradise, and Heaven or the Celestial Paradise. Scholars have debated the nature of evil in Middle-earth, arguing whether it is the absence of good (the Boethian position) or equally as powerful as good (the Manichaean view).

[Rath Darkblade]

OK, the influences on Middle-Earth are interesting. I had no idea about the Finnish and Welsh ones. Thanks!

But ...

Another question about Morgoth -- quoting from the LOTR Wiki entry on Morgoth:

"I am the Elder King: Melkor, first and mightiest of the Valar, who was before the world, and made it. The shadow of my purpose lies upon Arda, and all that is in it bends slowly and surely to my will. But upon all whom you love my thought shall weigh as a cloud of Doom, and it shall bring them down into darkness and despair. Wherever they go, evil shall arise. Whenever they speak, their words shall bring ill counsel. Whatsoever they do shall turn against them. They shall die without hope, cursing both life and death."
—Morgoth to Húrin, The Children of Húrin, pg. 64

This is curious. Melkor had nothing to do with creating Middle-Earth; it was done through the Vision of Illuvatar and the Music of the Ainur.

I would disagree, about Melkor having nothing to do with creating Middle-Earth.
The book specifically talks about how the other Ainur used music to shape and create the world, and Melkor kept messing with it, and changing it...

It's the first few chapters of the book - how when one of the Ainur did something, Melkor did something to mess up (like the mountains being jagged, from what I remember, is because Melkor messing with the creation by one of the other Ainir, whose name slips my mind)...

I think maybe I expressed myself badly. All I meant was that Melkor/Morgoth says that he was "... before the world, and made it."

If by "the world" he means "Arda", then he is only half-right -- he was there before Arda was created. But he didn't make it, he only influenced it in destructive ways. Only Eru Illuvatar has the power to create worlds. Melkor, for all his wisdom and might, can only destroy. To quote the "LOTR wiki" article again:

He coveted Arda and all that it contained, but when he was rejected in his lordship by his fellow Ainur, he sought instead to destroy, corrupt or pervert all that which they would create or steward...

The First Age and preceding eras saw him destroy many works of the Valar, such as the Two Lamps and Two Trees of Valinor, and clash with the Ñoldor for his theft of the Silmarils.

Although Morgoth can't create worlds, he did create many of the destructive races of Middle-Earth, like the dragons, the werewolves and the vampires. But he didn't create Ungoliant, the first great spider and a distant mother of Shelob.

By the way, it isn't clear where Ungoliant came from, or how she gave birth to anything, or even how she died. The canon states that Ungoliant was a spirit that chose the form of a gigantic spider, and speculates that in her hunger, she at last "devoured herself". But I have to wonder why a spider, and how she "devoured herself"; it seems highly problematic.

[BBP]

in mythology autophagia happens in the infamous Ouroboros (coincidentally the name of my favourite Dir en Grey-album) and the Greek king Erysichthon who was punished by the gods with an insatiable hunger..

Of course he also could have gotten the idea from The Greedy Python.

[Tawmis]

OK, the influences on Middle-Earth are interesting. I had no idea about the Finnish and Welsh ones. Thanks!

I only know because as I began my voyage to re-read The Silmarillion this year - I was floored by the - to me, anyway - heavy handed "God & Angels & Lucifer" feel to the very first "story." So I googled it - because I remember Tolkien saying in one of his letters, that he had wanted to keep our world's "Catholicism/Christianity" out of Middle-Earth and yet here's this opening story that has so many elements of it.

I think maybe I expressed myself badly. All I meant was that Melkor/Morgoth says that he was "... before the world, and made it."

Eh, I think you're reading too deeply.

When I make dinner for my wife, it's me who cooks it. But I am not the one the owns the cow I slay to get the meat, nor am I the one who grew the vegetables that we eat, but I am still the one "who made dinner."

I think what's being said in "he made it" is perhaps he had a hand in the shaping of the world.

By the way, it isn't clear where Ungoliant came from, or how she gave birth to anything, or even how she died. The canon states that Ungoliant was a spirit that chose the form of a gigantic spider, and speculates that in her hunger, she at last "devoured herself". But I have to wonder why a spider, and how she "devoured herself"; it seems highly problematic.

That whole evil feeds upon itself is pretty common trope, I feel like. Even Dragonlance, which is another story I love, has that theme - https://sites.google.com/view/dragonlan ... s-of-krynn

As for why Tolkien probably picked Spider - is because Spiders are probably one of the most "feared" (Arachnophobia - https://www.baptisthealth.com/blog/fami ... bias-fears - googled "most common fears" and that popped up). So many people are terrified of spiders, that it makes it an easy choice to select a spider - because people who read it would already feel a sense of dread.

[Rath Darkblade]

in mythology autophagia happens in the infamous Ouroboros (coincidentally the name of my favourite Dir en Grey-album) and the Greek king Erysichthon who was punished by the gods with an insatiable hunger.

*reads the story of Erysichthon*

Aaack. I had him confused with the story of Tantalus (also punished with an insatiable hunger and thirst), but Erysichthon's story is ... much, much creepier. *shudder* Thanks, BBP

[Tawmis]

I have like 100 pages to go... and dear lawd, this thing is a dreadful read. But I will make it. Two pages every few days at a time.

[Rath Darkblade]

Years after reading the Silmarillion, I've completely forgotten who it was that tried to invade the abode of the gods and get banished somewhere. That's how memorable they are ... years after I read the book.

Then they became Dark Somethings-Or-Other? Betrayers of Middle-Earth? Someone Important(TM), anyway? Um. (wracks his brain really hard) Um. Dark Men of Numenor? I guess?

All I remember about them is that thousands of years later, the Witch-King of Angmar (aka Sauron's right-hand man) gets them to help him. Some time in the Second Age, anyway.

And then in the Third Age, like 4,000 years later, Aragorn FINALLY overthrows Sauron and redeems the name of Numenor, blah etc. blah. But by this time, everyone's scratching their heads and thinking, "Wait, who were those guys again?"

Am I even close?