Some impressions about the ending, relatively spoiler-free but still under Spoiler Tags just to be safe.
The final battle(s) is easier than the Archdemon's fight that closed DA:O and much easier than, say, Xebenkeck or the High Dragon in this game. I'm also a little disappointed that you can talk to your companions only before the battle begins - like in DA:O, when every party member had something to say to the Warden at Denerim's City Gate - but, unlike Origins, not after. There's a brief cutscene and then the game is over.
"Who Needs To Be Rescued" is apparently bugged in DA2 for many... including myself.
After the set up, and the person is killed who starts the fight - there's one boss - standing by himself (who looks a lot like Zeveran, incidentally)... but there's no dialogue and the frappin' quest is stuck in the quest log...
The same thing has happened to me. I showed Maia this bug too, just in case I was somehow missing something and I wasn't. At least it's not a plot-related quest.
Considering how common this bug is, I think we shouldn't put the quest's name ("Who Needs to be Rescued") between spoiler tags. This info will actually benefit anyone who hasn't play that far yet (like Maia) so they know they don't have to waste time trying to accomplish it.
Tawmis wrote:And if I ever have to fight a High Dragon again - it will be be too freaking soon.
The fight against the High Dragon at the bone pit was intense. I wasn't properly prepared and as such, used up almost all of my health, stamina and mana potions. If I ever play this game again (and I might), I'll definitely stock up on fire resistance runes and weapons that deal cold damage.
Tawmis wrote:
DeadPoolX wrote:Anyway... I've dropped Anders from my party. He's still there in the character selection screen, but I'm no longer bringing him with me. I started doing this after his personal quest ("Justice") in Act 3.
I tend to sympathize with Mages and certainly don't like Templars, so no surprise there. But between how evasive he was being when questioned and how zealous he seems in his cause, I have a bad feeling he's going to do something that'll kill a lot of people.
After that I took back all the items and started using Merrill as my Mage. I'd used her before, so she had some good spells and a decent staff. Giving her Anders' stuff helped a lot.
I almost giggle that you kick out Anders but take Merrill along?
Just did Merrill's Quest for Act 3... and I'd like to see how you react (depending on how things go down, I am sure) - for hers.
I finished that quest today.
Although I was somewhat disappointed in Merrill, I wasn't disgusted like I was with Anders.
I think it's because she's a Dalish Elf and as such, their beliefs on certain practices are different. That doesn't mean I need to entirely agree or that Dalish Elves automatically think blood magic is good. However, it does mean that I can't realistically hold them to the same standard as I would someone who's grown up as a human.
In addition, the damage done by her isn't intentional. Whatever Anders is planning to do is just that: planned and that makes his actions even worse.
DeadPoolX wrote:Whatever Anders is planning to do is just that: planned and that makes his actions even worse.
We're so going to fight as soon as you find out what exactly is he planning to do
In other news, I've started a Rogue playthrough, but so far I'm not liking the new dual-wielding abilities so much. I may start a Warrior playthrough instead.
Tawmis wrote:
Just did Merrill's Quest for Act 3... and I'd like to see how you react (depending on how things go down, I am sure) - for hers.
I finished that quest today. Although I was somewhat disappointed in Merrill, I wasn't disgusted like I was with Anders.
I think it's because she's a Dalish Elf and as such, their beliefs on certain practices are different. That doesn't mean I need to entirely agree or that Dalish Elves automatically think blood magic is good. However, it does mean that I can't realistically hold them to the same standard as I would someone who's grown up as a human. In addition, the damage done by her isn't intentional. Whatever Anders is planning to do is just that: planned and that makes his actions even worse.
So I have to ask - was, the end result - when you finished and came back down the mountain - all of the Dalish attacked you?
Because that was a pain in the arse fight. I wasn't expecting it, and ill prepared for it. And the amount of damage archersdo is insane. So they were always my first target.
Also noticed, if you go by the one cave by the Dalish camp - randomly Darkspawn appear there - including an Ogre - which seems very out of place on Kirkwall area, doesn't it?
I really, really liked this game; in fact, I enjoyed it a lot more than DA:O. Despite the numerous bugs, repeated locales and poor textures on some NPCS, the game was more interesting.
I liked being in a city, instead of the usual wilderness or dungeons or whatever. The city felt alive and people were constantly moving about, talking, etc. That all made the environment feel much more engaging.
The companions themselves had much fuller, more developed personalities. I didn't like or agree with all of them, but that's how it works in real life, too. It was also nice to see your teammates respond to their surroundings and what YOU do. BioWare did that with DA:O and both ME games, but not to the same degree as it was done in DA2.
Now for the spoiler-tagged conversation!
1. I was right about Anders. I didn't know he'd actually blow up the Chantry, but I figured he'd do something similar. I was really ticked off when he did that. The head of the Chantry in Kirkwall actually seemed reasonable (I loved it when she spoke to Meredith like a parent scolding their child) so maybe something could've been worked out.
I guess what pissed me off the most was that I could've stopped him. I agree that the Templars were abusing their power, but by performing an act of terrorism on an institution like the Chantry, his argument went out the window! Even worse, the Templars (and presumably the "average person") blamed ALL the Mages. So Anders' little act of rebellion actually destroyed any trust that was given to Mages as a whole.
When it came time for me to "decide what to do" with Anders, I killed him. I know that probably just turned him into a martyr, but if I had let him go, he would've done something like this again.
2. I sided with the Mages against the Templars at the end, but as the battle wore on, I felt myself regretting it on some level. Almost every Mage I found used blood magic of some sort. Here I am, sticking up for Mages by saying "they're not all bad" and guess what? We see Mages transforming themselves into abominations just to prove the Templars right!
I could excuse a random Mage or two, but when Orsino does it as well? I know he didn't want to and felt trapped, but when the First Enchanter starts using blood magic, no one is going to listen to the cries of "Mages aren't all bad!"
When it all boiled down to it, there are only two reasons I chose the Mages over the Templars: Meredith was a cruel power-hungry lunatic and Bethany is a Mage.
3. Everyone sided with me against the Templars. Initially Fenris refused to fight FOR the Mages Circle, but after I used the "I thought you wanted freedom for slaves" line, he switched sides. Good thing, too. He can pack a mean punch!
I was quite happy to see that Bethany rejoined my party. At that point in time, she became my most powerful Mage.
Although I was a little surprised to see non-controlled non-active party members join the battle, I was shocked to see other characters there! I hadn't expected to see Nathaniel and Zevran or Cullen, for that matter. I'm glad he turned against Meredith. Aside from Thrask, Cullen was the only other Templar who could actually reason beyond "Mages are evil, kill them all!"
Anyway... I'm sure there's other stuff I could talk about, but I'm getting tired and my ability to type or think is rapidly diminishing.
How long did it take you, DPX? Judging by when you started playing, I'd say definitely less than Origins, am I right?
Anyway, in the end, I liked DA2 very, very, very much. In my opinion the story is far better than the Origins' one and the companions are more involved in the plot, more developed as individual characters and more intertwined with each other. But it was the story that wholeheartedly convinced me: with no ancient evil to defeat, the plot felt more realistic, believable and engrossing. More personal, more human. And that's always welcome. And yes, despite my initial gripes, now I love Kirkwall. I know every nook and cranny of the city and it feels real, even if I'd have liked even more people in the streets.
About the ending...
I obviously spared Anders and agree to run away with him. Before I explain, let me say that, one way or another, that scene was incredibly written. It was truly magnificent in my opinion. Every single line of dialogue was outstanding, from Orsino shouting "You fool! You've doomed us all!" to Anders saying "I removed the chance of compromise, because there is no compromise."
In my opinion, Anders did the right thing. Surely, it's horrible. But it was necessary. There's only one bloodless revolution in history, and that came after an incredibly bloody war. It was inevitable. Elthina was a petty, decrepit old hag who believed that sit on her hands and do nothing was the will of the Maker. By doing so, she was de facto allowing Meredith to torture the Mages. I won't mourn her loss. Not a bit. And yes, it's a tragedy that the Chantry bombing made casualties even in the civilian people, but, like as I said, it was inevitable. Anders is a visionary, a revolutionary, an incredibly brave man who fights for freedom no matter what. His actions may be questionable, but his intent his pure. If you romance him, in the end he says: "Ten years, a hundred years from now, someone like me will love someone like you, and there will be no templars to tear them apart." This is a world worth fighting for and if it takes his act to set this revolution in motion - the ending clearly states that Circles throughout Thedas started rebelling as well, after what happened in Kirkwall - then so be it. If he would have said to me what he was planning, Hawke, initially, would have tried to convince not to, but in the end he would have helped me nonetheless.
His actions have a striking resemblance with what Karl Marx worte in 1848 in his Manifesto of the Communist Party: "The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. WORKING MEN OF ALL COUNTRIES, UNITE!" That DA2 manages to be so nuanced and thought provoking it's a testament to its quality.
As for the other party members, in the end everyone - minus Isabela, whom I lost in Act 2, and that unsufferable prick Sebastian (oh, how would I have liked to kill him outright! I hate, hate, hate him! "Oh Elthina! Oh Maker! Oh Elthina!" Go sc**w yourself, you idiot!) - remained with me, even Fenris. But it didn't matter: in the end, my party was still me, Anders, Aveline and Varric. But it was wonderful to see the others joining in as the battle with Meredith progressed.
One thing about Orsino: DPX, what do you say about the revelation that he was "O," the one who provided Quentin with the tools necessary to his necromantic research?
Yeah, DA2 didn't take me anywhere near as long. I don't know if the game was actually shorter itself or it just felt that way because the quests don't drag on forever like they did in DA:O.
Don't get me wrong -- I don't think the Templars were right in how they treated Mages and there needed to be change. However, Anders' actions practically killed the entire Mage Circle in Kirkwall (in addition to civilians), which to me seems reckless at best when you're trying to obtain freedom for them.
Judging by the ending that Varric told, I have a feeling the "average person" will now fear Mages far more than before. This will only lead to a larger backlash against them and maybe a more powerful reemergence of the Templars.
In other words, no matter what Anders' goal was, he's only succeeded in terrorizing the public and in the process, probably made Mages more hated and feared than before he blew up the Chantry.
Yes, something needed to be done, but considering how many people strongly believe in the Maker and the Chantry, his attack on that institution will not be met with anything but violence. In fact, I could easily see Mages splitting off into factions themselves because of this.
And as for Orsino... well, to be honest, I didn't make the connection until it was too late as I'd forgotten who Quentin was at the time. Regardless, I didn't feel bad about killing him. Like you said, he provided for Quentin and turned into a creature that made no distinction between ally and enemy.
If you think about this, there is no "good" outcome in this game. Neither side is "good" or "bad," just very different in their beliefs and sometimes hold too strongly to them.
DeadPoolX wrote:
If you think about this, there is no "good" outcome in this game. Neither side is "good" or "bad," just very different in their beliefs and sometimes hold too strongly to them.
Absolutely. It's one of the things I like most about the finale.
Like a user on the social site pointed out, this game is all about extremists and the lengths they go to secure their ideals, pure or twisted as they may be.
I don't know if Anders' actions will result in a public backlash against mages. But he wasn't trying to make mages more liked by the general population or to improve what Thedas people think of them. He was trying to free them from the Templars. The destruction of the Chantry served to spark off the revolution: Varric says, in the ending sequence, that every Circle in Thedas rebelled to the Chantry. This is what Anders was trying to. And he succeeded.
But enough about this I knew beforehand that you would have had a very different view about this issue. Let's talk about... Leliana.
What do you think of the actual ending? The one after Cassandra let Varric go. I was fairly surprised to see that Leliana is now a Seeker, and even more surprised to learn that both the Warden and Hawke disappeared.
Anders reaction as to what he does with the Chantry. Excessive. I absolutely disagreed with the idea of what he did. I also thought it was extremely out of character for him - especially being merged with Justice, which he clearly is. He clearly lied to the Champion about the stuff he needed to free himself from Justice - it was all to blow up the Chantry. All, way out of character, as far as I am concerned. That whole thing was a bit disappointing.
So what was his fate? Make he fight with me and make things right - though every instinct said to run my axe across his neck while he was sitting there.
Although sparing Anders, turned Sebastian to leave... Which was no loss, as I rarely used him anyway.
Just like DPX, I was also disappointed that I sided with the mages - and trying to say they're not all bad - and then the First Enchanter turns to blood magic? And apparently Blood Magic only requires slitting your wrist. There's no real learning to be done - or he has had access to Blood Magic all along. That was also excessively disappointing that you side to defend them - and the main one turns to Blood Magic. Meh. Would have been - as DPX said - nice if there was SOME freaking mages that weren't into Blood Magic. I get that the Kirkwall Templars/Meredith probably created this situation with so many Blood Mages - but it would have been nice if the First Enchanter at least remained normal.
I also thought it was interesting that right before all of this - I managed to bed Merill, and be all loving with her - and in the end - the game knew somehow that I would have much preferred Isabella - and it says that's who I ran off with.
I am curious, speaking of Merill - had I not bedded her - who is it the templars would have abducted for the mission down at the Wounded Coast when they kidnap someone?
Also, DPX - you said you were unable to turn Anders/Justice away from killing some mages in a cave - which means, during your scene when you go to rescue whoever it is that's abducted - they would not have been present there to have some dialogue I assume?
The final fight, was extremely fun. I loved the fight with Meredith. The only down side was some dialogue was hard to hear. While she was down fighting - and I was fighting adds - she'd occasionally stun everyone and have some dialogue - but if I was far from her - it was difficult to hear.
Anders' plan to blow up the Chantry is entirely in character, in my opinion. Don't forget that Justice isn't Justice anymore. He's Vengeance. And Anders says it himself: "I removed the chance of compromise, because there is no compromise." If you're in a relationship with him, how he slowly evolves during the seven years of the game is crystal clear. He's a dreamer, a visionary like I said, and he will stop in front of nothing to achieve his dream. Maybe you missed in the spoiler-tags fest of our previous messages, but here: "Ten years, a hundred years from now, someone like me will love someone like you, and there will be no templars to tear them apart." As I said before, I fully support his plan. It's not terrorism. It's revolution.
As for the kidnap, it would have been Carver/Bethany if they survived the Deep Roads or remained safe at home during the expedition.
Tawmis wrote:
I hardly consider an act of terrorism as courageous...
As I said in my earlier post, it's not terrorism. It's revolution.
Let's take Karl Marx's words I mentioned before and suppose they came straight out of Anders' manifesto: "Let the Templars tremble at a Mage revolution. Mages have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win. MAGES OF ALL COUNTRIES, UNITE!"
AndreaDraco wrote:
It's not terrorism. It's revolution.
OooOooOo. So... the Al-Queda people... when they go blow themselves out killing hundreds of innocent people... that's not acts of terrorism... that's... starting a revolution?
Yeah, somehow I don't think we're gonna agree here.
I knew someone would have made that example, sooner or later.
No, it's very, very different.
Anders didn't destroy the Chantry and Grand Cleric Elthina just to kill a bunch of civilians. In fact, he did at night, when there were no civilians at all in the building. He didn't do it to murder someone. He did it because it was the only way to achieve the revolution he was dreaming about.
I find it amusing that what Anders did is often equated to terrorism but Robespierre is often hailed as a revolutionary. When he guillotined Louis XVI, no one accused him of terrorism. Certainly, he then degenerated but his first act was one of freedom, not of terrorism.
The American Revolution started in a similar manner, no? With an act of violence coming after years of oppression and unjust treatment.
