I can haz new shiny?

[Rath Darkblade]

Looking for recommendations - I'm looking to upgrade my desktop to another one. (Please, no recommendations for laptops - I'm definite on keeping my computer as a desktop for the foreseeable future).

I've narrowed down my search to a local store that I've had a history of good service and reasonable prices with. I'm currently tossing up between the following two desktops:

Choice 1.
Processor: Intel 2.7Ghz
Memory: 2G DDR3
Hard Disk: 500G SATAII
Optical: DVD Burner
Network: Gigabit LAN
Price: $383 (Aussie)

Choice 2.
Processor: Intel i3 530
Memory: 4G DDR3
Hard Disk: 1TB SATAII
Optical: DVD Burner
Network: Gigabit LAN, Wireless
Other: Multi-Card Reader
Price: $656 (Aussie)

I can afford either. The question is, which one do I go for? The more expensive version has twice the memory and a hard drive twice as big. However, I'm also paying for wireless capability and a multi-card reader - neither of which I really need. I've looked up what "Intel i3 530" means - the speed appears to be 2.93Ghz, but I'm not sure what the rest means. Does anyone know if there's a genuine difference between the processors?

I don't use my computer for anything more tasking than the occasional word-processing task, for general online use (plus - rarely - watching a video or two), and quite a bit of gaming (strictly offline). My current desktop is sufficient for all the gaming I wish to do; however, I'm thinking of acquiring Dragon Age, and to do this, I must upgrade.

Here are my current stats:
OS: WinXP SP3
Processor: Intel Pentium 4 with 3GHz
Memory: 1Gb RAM
Hard Disk: One 120Gb SATA and one 40Gb SATA (dual-booted)
Optical: LG DVD Burner
Network: Gigabit LAN

(I know, I know - this computer is probably well over its half-life! *G* However, it has served me very well for the past 7 years or so).

Any recommendations?

[misslilo]

It's more interesting which graphic card and size of power supply they have then

[gumby]

From a price perspective: I always go for 'middle-of-the-road' pricing when it comes to computers & computer components. I will never buy the cheapest or the most expensive - I instead look for where the most of products are grouped.

This is an extremely unscientific way of doing it, but it has worked for me for years. Another bonus is you save a few bucks & can afford to upgrade/replace your system more frequently.

With that said, I wouldn't worry about the memory amount or disk size - those can both be upgraded later & shouldn't drastically impact your decision IMHO. You are right to dwell on the processor & the video card - these are what is going to make games work great or lag...

Oh yeah, and I never buy something that I don't need (like the wireless you were referring to).

[Collector]

I don't buy bleeding edge hardware as you end up paying top dollar for something that that you'll be able to pick up much cheaper a few months down the road. However, I also never cheap out too much for my main machine. For a little more you can invest in a machine that you might be able to use for a couple of years longer. The main thing to not cheap out on is the motherboard and CPU. All of the other components can easily be upgraded at a later date.

You don't mention what processor the first is. Clock is not as important as what line of CPU it is. The i3 is a good chip. Between the two I would definitely go with the second. It is more future proof.

[DeadPoolX]

As others have said, the most important parts to spend on are the motherboard, processor and power supply. Replacing the latter is easier than a motherboard and processor; however, it's more difficult (and annoying) than other parts.

The power supply is also important as it can dictate what sort of video card you can use. Using two high-end video cards in SLI or Crossfire mode will demand more power than using one. As expected, you'll also need more power to run a 1GB video card than you would for a 512MB one.

If you've planned ahead with the power supply, you'll have your choice of video cards. There's very little difference between ATI and Nvidia these days. Fanboys of each will claim ATI or Nvidia is better than the other, but for the most part, it doesn't really matter. What's more important is the card itself and for that you'll need to check review sites. Look at more than one site since some reviewers are biased towards one company or the other.

Hard drive size isn't that important. I have a 250GB hard drive (been using it since 2004) and I have yet to fill it up. I've also put a lot of games on it, including ones like Empire Total War which is 15GB itself. In addition, I also have tons of videos, images and MP3s on there as well. So you won't need more than a 512GB hard drive for right now. If you can get a 1TB hard drive for the same price (or very close to it), then you might as well go for it, but it's easily replaceable no matter what you do.

Normally I'd say RAM isn't too import either, since it's the easiest thing to upgrade. However, you'll need more RAM running Windows 7 than you would with Windows XP. So make sure you have more RAM than what meets the required minimum for whatever OS you choose.

Disc drives are just about the same unless you get one that plays and/or records to BluRay. Disc drives are backwards compatible so you can play everything on a BluRay drive. However, considering that BluRay is limited to movies at the moment and that disc drives are easy to replace, I'd stick with DVD drives until software makes the switch. Don't bother with gimmicks like LightScribe since you'll need special discs to take advantage of that.

I'd also recommend water cooling. I don't even know if an all-fan option exists anymore, but if it does, don't choose it. Water cooling does a much better job of regulating internal temperature, plus it's quiet. Maia's PC has water cooling and it's nearly silent and produces very little heat, whereas my computer uses all fans and it sounds like a jet engine. My PC also produces so much heat that Maia's said we don't need to turn on the office's heat so long as my computer is switched on.

As for extras like a card reader and wireless... don't bother unless you don't mind spending the extra cash. You can easily get an external card reader (assuming you ever have the need for it) and unless you have the burning desire to use a wireless connection, which is unlikely if you're only using a desktop, then I wouldn't bother with that as well.

Additional items you might want to consider are: a surge protector, an external hard drive and a USB flash drive or two. None of those are absolutely necessary (with the possible exception of the surge protector), but considering the limited storage of disc media nowadays, I'd invest in larger methods of backup storage.

[Rath Darkblade]

Thanks very much for the advice!

I didn't mention what kind of graphics card and size of power supply there is, because I simply don't know - the advertisement itself does not say. I have my own graphics card which I intend to use, presuming that the motherboard will allow it - a Radeon 8550. If I cannot use it, I suppose I would have to purchase a new one, since "in-house built" systems like the ones I quoted would only use a no-name on-board graphics card - very limited. The last time I bought a desktop, the only graphics card on offer with the desktop was a card with 256Mb of RAM - I'm sure it's gone up since then, though.

Collector, I didn't don't mention what processor the first one is because I simply don't know - the advertisement itself only says "Intel 2.7GHz". That doesn't give me much to go on, unfortunately.

I'm not too sure about water cooling. How much more expensive is it, and how safe? Also, do I need to re-fill it somehow? I'm using two fans for the fan cooling, and my computer is currently relatively quiet (relative, that is, to what it used to be with just one fan!) *L* Seriously, though, I haven't had any complaints - it's very quiet.

As for the power supply, I only need to run one graphics card so I don't think I need anything too powerful or power-consuming.

I don't think I need the extras, since I'd never use them, nor do I need an excessively large HDD or too much RAM. The only thing I'm worried about is whether a computer with 2Gb of RAM would run Dragon Age; since I intend to run XP, the CPU required is a Intel Core 2 Solo 1.6 GHz (minimum) or am Intel Core 2 Duo 2.4 GHz processor or equivalent (recommended). Also, it requires 1 Gb of RAM (minimum) or 2 Gb of RAM (recommended). I'm not sure if either of the processors I quoted would be sufficient - the clock speed is more than enough, and I believe I know what Intel Core 2 Solo/Duo refers to, but I'm not sure whether either of the processors I quoted would be good enough. Any thoughts there?

Thanks again.

[Collector]

Don't mess around with water cooling. The possibility of leaks is real. It's not needed in most cases, especially if you are not overclocking. Modern CPUs tend to run very cool. The Core 2 is the brand name of a specific CPU by Intel. The newer lines from Intel are the i3, i5 and i7. Reports of the performance of the i7 have been as much as twice that of the Core 2.

As far as the non integrated graphics card make goes, most of the manufacturers use either an ATI or NVIDIA GPU. They are going to use the Catalyst or Detonator drivers, so you will want to base your choice on the GPU, itself, and onboard RAM. The choice between ATI and NVIDIA is mostly personal preference. I, personally have had fewer problems with the ATI drivers than I have with NVIDIA's.

[DeadPoolX]

Your choice, Rath, but I have to disagree with Collector and say that water cooling is a huge plus. As I said before, my PC literally sounds like a jet engine when on and produces enough heat to warm our office during winter. In contrast, Maia's machine -- which has water cooling -- is super quiet and barely puts out any heat at all.

I'd also like to note that my PC isn't actually overheating. It probably would if it weren't for all the extremely loud and active fans inside the case. That's why the room turns into a sauna instead of my PC becoming a fireball.

Maia really likes her water cooling (she would do it again in a new PC) and said it wasn't very expensive, only something like $100 USD. Maia does have a high-end water cooling system and as we all know, not all parts are equal, so you'd need to research this a little.

As far as Dragon Age is concerned... don't worry. You could actually play DA right now on your current machine and it'd probably play very well. The only problem might be your video card. The Radeon 8550 is ancient as -- among other issues -- it's limited to pixel shader 1.4 at best, whereas my video card can do pixel shader 4.1 (and my video card is considered old now too). Some games have specific requirements when it comes to pixel shader abilities so you'll need to upgrade.

Using DA's specs, I shouldn't be able to play it, but I did and with all the graphical "bells and whistles" on max. The only place the game stuttered a little was in the market at Denerim, but from what I've read, that's pretty common, regardless of what machine you have.

As a side note, many third-person games overstate what's required. Once again, according to the specs, I shouldn't be able to play games like Batman: Arkham Asylum and Mass Effect 2. However, I can play both and do it exceedingly well. Not only that, I have every graphical option turned up, so I'm not missing any eye candy at all.

[Collector]

Your choice, Rath, but I have to disagree with Collector and say that water cooling is a huge plus. As I said before, my PC literally sounds like a jet engine when on and produces enough heat to warm our office during winter.

But you have a P4, which was about the hottest chip that Intel ever made for the consumer market. Modern CPUs run far cooler. A hard drive or stick of RAM will feel hotter than the stock quiet heat sink of a Core 2 or an i3, i5, i7. Rath is looking to get a modern CPU, possibly even an i3.

On top of that, I have known of several people that ended up with leaks that ruined their machines. Now if Rath was going to do some serious over clocking...

[DeadPoolX]

Well, you probably know more about the new chips than I do. I still think water cooling is a good thing, but that's my opinion.

I just got a laptop with an i7 in it and it runs pretty hot, but it's a laptop. From what I've noticed, laptops heat up very quickly no matter what CPU you have.

Oh and while we're talking about heat and Pentium 4 chips, I'm proud to say I've managed to keep its temperature low. Right now my CPU temp is 42 degrees Celsius. For a P4, that's practically icy.

[Collector]

Right now my CPU temp is 42 degrees Celsius. For a P4, that's practically icy.

True

[Rath Darkblade]

OK, I'm not going to go into the overclocking vs. non-overclocking issue! I'm not particularly interested in overclocking - I'm aware that it exists, and have read about how to do it. I have never actually tried it because I know the risks are great, particularly for beginners like me, and I probably won't get much more performance out of it. So, you can call me an old conservative if you want, but I'd rather avoid these risks if possible!

I know the Radeon 8550 is ancient. At the time I got it, I wanted to play TES4: Oblivion, and that card would run the game and was all I could afford at the time. (This would have been 4 years ago, and I never really needed a better card).

That's interesting about the P4 - if I'm still running a P4, I'm not sure why my machine isn't hotter or noisier, particularly as I have two fans. I can hear them both going - they're not completely inaudible - but the overall effect is definitely not noisy.

Hmm. Would my current machine be able to run DA? I'm not too sure, particularly as I only have 1Gb of RAM in total, and the game requires a minimum of 1Gb of RAM just to run. I'm also not too sure if my processor could handle it. Also, it's not just a question of running DA, as my desktop is now 7 years old and quickly approaching its 8th birthday - so I'd rather do something before it kicks the bucket. Any thoughts there?

Thanks!

[DeadPoolX]

OK, I'm not going to go into the overclocking vs. non-overclocking issue! I'm not particularly interested in overclocking - I'm aware that it exists, and have read about how to do it. I have never actually tried it because I know the risks are great, particularly for beginners like me, and I probably won't get much more performance out of it. So, you can call me an old conservative if you want, but I'd rather avoid these risks if possible!

I've tried overclocking before, just not on my current PC. I did it a long time ago when I had an Athlon 1900+ (or whatever the hell it was called). The card on that PC was a GeForce 3 Ti500, so that gives you an idea of just how long it's been since I've overclocked a video card.

Just so you know, I couldn't overclock the GF3 very much. If I pushed it too hard, I'd get artifacts and that's when you know it's time to back down.

I know the Radeon 8550 is ancient. At the time I got it, I wanted to play TES4: Oblivion, and that card would run the game and was all I could afford at the time. (This would have been 4 years ago, and I never really needed a better card).

The good news is video cards aren't as expensive as they used to be. The top-of-the-line cards still cost a lot, but you won't need the "latest and greatest" video card to play most games, including DA.

If you want to try taxing your PC, give Fallout 3 a whirl. It'll play on lesser machines, but if you want every graphical option turned on, you'll need a damn good PC and video card or expect to stutter a lot.

I've played F3 on my PC and although it runs well most of the time, it has some problems in larger areas, like cities. That's probably due to all the NPCs moving about and such.

That's interesting about the P4 - if I'm still running a P4, I'm not sure why my machine isn't hotter or noisier, particularly as I have two fans. I can hear them both going - they're not completely inaudible - but the overall effect is definitely not noisy.

Well, my machine is clocked higher than yours. You said you have a 3 GHz and mine is a 3.6 GHz. Theoretically, the differences shouldn't be that great, but who knows? Maybe that extra 600 MHz makes my machine a lot hotter? I also have more than two fans and both are very high powered. So that probably contributes to the noise as well.

Hmm. Would my current machine be able to run DA? I'm not too sure, particularly as I only have 1Gb of RAM in total, and the game requires a minimum of 1Gb of RAM just to run. I'm also not too sure if my processor could handle it. Also, it's not just a question of running DA, as my desktop is now 7 years old and quickly approaching its 8th birthday - so I'd rather do something before it kicks the bucket. Any thoughts there?

Well, here are the game-relevant specs on my PC:

Pentium 4 3.6 GHz w/HT
2 GB of RAM
ATI Radeon 3870 (512 MB)

So yes, I have a faster CPU, more RAM and a more powerful video card. However, the major difference here is your video card, which probably wouldn't be good enough to run DA. Other than the video card, the differences between our two machines are rather small and probably wouldn't be a deciding factor.

If you're absolutely sure you want DA (and it sounds like you do), I'd suggest buying it right now. Test it out on your current machine and try it with the video card and RAM you have now.

Chances are it won't run or won't run well, but at least you'll know for sure. You might as well find out if you can run DA (and to whatever standard you desire) before purchasing an entirely new machine.

If you're dead set on getting a new PC (regardless of DA), then go do that first. However, if your major reason for upgrading is DA itself, I think testing it out now couldn't hurt. The worst that'll happen is you can't play DA until you get your new PC, which is what you're assuming anyway.

[Rath Darkblade]

The good news is video cards aren't as expensive as they used to be. The top-of-the-line cards still cost a lot, but you won't need the "latest and greatest" video card to play most games, including DA.

That's great! The Radeon 8550 (at the time) cost me somewhere between $100 and $200 Australian - certainly not less. (That was 4 years ago, though - and TES4 still crashes to desktop randomly, though not often).

If you're absolutely sure you want DA (and it sounds like you do), I'd suggest buying it right now. Test it out on your current machine and try it with the video card and RAM you have now. Chances are it won't run or won't run well, but at least you'll know for sure. You might as well find out if you can run DA (and to whatever standard you desire) before purchasing an entirely new machine.

If you're dead set on getting a new PC (regardless of DA), then go do that first. However, if your major reason for upgrading is DA itself, I think testing it out now couldn't hurt. The worst that'll happen is you can't play DA until you get your new PC, which is what you're assuming anyway.

Thanks, that's good advice. I'm pretty dead-set on getting a new PC - I've had this one since the beginning of 2004 (plus upgraded parts now and then), and though it's bearing up very well, I think it's time for a new one.

I think I might give my machine another 2-3 weeks, until the theatrical show I'm doing finishes the run we're doing. *phew* In the meantime, in my 'copious' free time, I'll look up and compare prices for parts etc., and compare prices on DA. Prices should drop as Xmas approaches anyway. *BWG*

Much of the reason I would like to get DA is that I played Neverwinter Nights back in the day and enjoyed it very much, and DA is made by the same bunch. I also played TES4: Oblivion and enjoyed that too - but then, I've played and enjoyed role-playing games since the days when they were played exclusively on someone's tabletop with pencil and paper. (Yes, I'm a dinosaur. So sue me).

[DeadPoolX]

I don't know if you ever played NWN online with friends, but DA doesn't have an online mode at all. I think BioWare really missed the boat on that one. The major reason NWN remained as popular as it did was because you could play it online.

By the way... on DA Nexus, there are a ton of user-made mods for the game. Some are ridiculous (like making all the female characters nude with huge breasts or turning the sex scenes into p0rn-like material), but most are pretty cool. Some of the best mods affect little things, like keeping your dog with you without him taking up a party slot or removing the different glowing effects of sustainable defense magic. The latter looks neat the first few times, but if you have a lot of defensive spells (like I did), it can get annoying very quickly.